Page 10 of 11 FirstFirst ... 891011 LastLast
Results 91 to 100 of 108

Thread: Did God Predestine Judas to Betray Christ?

  1. #91
    Senior Member Nikos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Iowa
    Posts
    9,205
    Thanked: 5481
    Blog Entries
    41
    This is an interesting discussion. I do not have the time to involve myself in it so I will not be able to straighten all of you out. However suffice it to say most believers say that God exists outside of time, but how is this really possible? If God created the universe, then there was a moment when God existed alone, before he created the universe, and then there was a moment when God exists with the universe, after he created it. But you cannot have concepts of "before" and "after" without time. In order for God to do anything, there must be a time before, and a time after he does it. Therefore, it is logically impossible for God to exist outside of time.

  2. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Nikos For This Useful Post:

    FresnoJoe (09-29-2015), njtom (09-03-2015), victoryword (09-03-2015)

  3. #92
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Oslo, Norway
    Posts
    14,074
    Thanked: 5486
    I think it is more useful to see God as allowing time to exist so that he can have a before and after to express the life that he is through and so that his creatures can interact with him. What God can or can not do given circumstances that are alien to us (more or fewer dimensions or even none) is probably beyond our human minds, at least to understand to a large degree.

  4. The Following User Says Thank You to Colonel For This Useful Post:

    FresnoJoe (09-29-2015)

  5. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Victoryword, I just concluded above that I can not possibly have reached a full understanding of who God is, not even at the level I was discussing him. The Spirit searches out all things - that is true, but Paul also says :

    1 Cor 13:9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part,
    10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.
    11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me.
    12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror (ancient mirrors were flawed and fuzzy); then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

    So no, God is not easily understood. Maybe Christ understood him fully and was thereby able to consecrate himself fully. We have his mind but only upon having been fully transformed into his image will our minds be fully according to the mind of Christ and understand fully. We are light years away from that.
    Dude, stop taking the Bible out of context and adding your own meaning to it. This passage does NOT support mystery religion. You being a Charismatic of all people should know that this is only in reference to the fact that the gifts of the Spirit are no longer needed once Jesus returns. You cannot come up with a philosophy about God and time and then use these types of passage to support your man-made paradoxes.

    God always reveals His mysteries to His people:

    Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself (Eph. 1:9)

    Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints (Col. 1:26)

    God and time is a man-made mystery based on philosophical pontification rather than Biblical revelation. It has taken such a stronghold in the minds of Christians that no plain Scripture truth (such as the obvious one Nikos points out in his post) will ever convince anyone otherwise. When I did at one time embraced the false idea that God was "outside of time" I could never reconcile in my mind how I could really have a genuine relationship with Him as well as understand His dealings with people in the Bible. The only conclusion was to consider it a mystery.

    This becomes unnecessary when we drop this man-made philosophy and stick with what the Bible PLAINLY teaches on this subject.

  6. The Following User Says Thank You to victoryword For This Useful Post:

    FresnoJoe (09-29-2015)

  7. #94
    Also, I wish you guys would stop adding your own personal definitions to eternity. Numerous Scriptures define eternity as having a starting point: "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal" (Matt. 25:46).

    If "eternity" means "outide of time" or "eternal NOW" (never having sequential experience) then much of what the Bible says about believers receiving eternal life or entering into it makes no sense at all - but I know, this is all supposed to be a "mystery" right?

  8. The Following User Says Thank You to victoryword For This Useful Post:

    FresnoJoe (09-29-2015)

  9. #95
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Oslo, Norway
    Posts
    14,074
    Thanked: 5486
    Eternal life begins with the new birth. While Jesus' life was said to be without beginning (with Melchizedek as a type of that) that is not a requirement for something to qualify as eternal, it only needs to have either no beginning or no end to be of infinite duration.

  10. The Following User Says Thank You to Colonel For This Useful Post:

    FresnoJoe (09-29-2015)

  11. #96
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Oslo, Norway
    Posts
    14,074
    Thanked: 5486
    Quote Originally Posted by victoryword View Post
    If "eternity" means "outide of time" or "eternal NOW" (never having sequential experience) ?
    I don't think eternity means either one of the above.

    While I don't believe that God's existence in any way depends on the existence of time (or anything else that you can name either), I do not believe that he exists in (or is in any way restricted to) an "eternal now". But his fundamental existence may still not be exactly like the one he has created for us.

    Why wouldn't he be able to relate fully to us regardless ? He was always able to manifest inside creation and interact with us in the Old Testament and since he incarnated himself through Jesus, there is no question about his total ability to relate to us through him.

  12. The Following User Says Thank You to Colonel For This Useful Post:

    FresnoJoe (09-29-2015)

  13. #97
    Super Moderator Quest's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Ashville, Alabama
    Posts
    5,863
    Thanked: 3342
    Blog Entries
    2
    Quote Originally Posted by Nikos View Post
    This is an interesting discussion. I do not have the time to involve myself in it so I will not be able to straighten all of you out. However suffice it to say most believers say that God exists outside of time, but how is this really possible? If God created the universe, then there was a moment when God existed alone, before he created the universe, and then there was a moment when God exists with the universe, after he created it. But you cannot have concepts of “before” and “after” without time. In order for God to do anything, there must be a time before, and a time after he does it. Therefore, it is logically impossible for God to exist outside of time.
    Maybe it's not that God is 'outside of time' but that God is outside of OUR limited time perspective...We have mornings and evenings, we have beginnings and endings, we have times and seasons...to our knowledge HE does not. So maybe the issue is more in the nature of our own God established limitations and we assume HE has them too?

    We have NO answer for God's origin..and in Hebrews we read.."2 to whom also Abraham apportioned a tenth part of all the spoils, was first of all, by the translation of his name, king of righteousness, and then also king of Salem, which is king of peace. 3 Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually."

    What is the purpose of time in eternity? When we get to Heaven isn't it perpetual light? I don't believe we are capable of grasping God's perspective of His creation...at lest not until we are in it with Him.

  14. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Quest For This Useful Post:

    Colonel (09-03-2015), FresnoJoe (09-29-2015)

  15. #98
    Super Moderator Quest's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Ashville, Alabama
    Posts
    5,863
    Thanked: 3342
    Blog Entries
    2
    Quote Originally Posted by victoryword View Post
    Also, I wish you guys would stop adding your own personal definitions to eternity. Numerous Scriptures define eternity as having a starting point: "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal" (Matt. 25:46).

    If "eternity" means "outide of time" or "eternal NOW" (never having sequential experience) then much of what the Bible says about believers receiving eternal life or entering into it makes no sense at all - but I know, this is all supposed to be a "mystery" right?
    Colonel is right...we are already in eternal life...they going into it is speaking of the shedding of our limited body..passing on to the next phase so to speak..

    Where God is concerned He is living in eternity and had no beginning..and no end...

  16. The Following User Says Thank You to Quest For This Useful Post:

    FresnoJoe (09-29-2015)

  17. #99
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Oslo, Norway
    Posts
    14,074
    Thanked: 5486
    Establishing our limitations in understanding this whole topic is easy. It's a simple matter of always asking for the first cause. We end up with

    "What caused or causes God to exist ?"

    There is no answer to that that a human being can comprehend. I can make an infinite string out of it and say that "God is caused by God who is caused by God .... to infinite" but it still doesn't really cut it.

    A similar question would be "What or who caused or causes existence"

    If the answer to that is "God" then that would imply that God didn't exist when he caused existence.

    Our hearts can understand the Biblical testimony concerning him, that God simply is. He is the great "I AM". Then everything is contained in him and extends from him. Anything you can name. Which would include existence apart from his simply being. And time. And space. And so forth.

    God is the origin

  18. The Following User Says Thank You to Colonel For This Useful Post:

    FresnoJoe (09-29-2015)

  19. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Quest View Post
    Colonel is right...we are already in eternal life...they going into it is speaking of the shedding of our limited body..passing on to the next phase so to speak..

    Where God is concerned He is living in eternity and had no beginning..and no end...
    Were you in eternal life before or after you came to Christ?

  20. The Following User Says Thank You to victoryword For This Useful Post:

    FresnoJoe (09-29-2015)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
You can stop worrying about unexpected, expensive repair costs with an extended service plan for your Volkswagen. We have service plans for all Volkswagen models including the popular Volkswagen Jetta.