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Thread: Praying for Sick Believers

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by fuego View Post
    I believed like this for many years of course because that's how we were taught in WOF. But the more I began to study it, I now disagree with with it generally speaking. Let's take the "Now He could do no mighty work there, except that He laid His hands on a few sick people and healed them. And He marveled because of their unbelief". We were always taught this with the impression that Jesus laid hands on a lot of people but all of them didn't get healed due to their unbelief. In other words their unbelief actually stopped the power of God even though Jesus laid hands on them. I don't see it that way know. The people He laid hands on DID get healed. In other words, unbelief didn't stop the power of God, the unbelief kept them from letting Him pray for them in the first place. Every one that allowed Jesus to lay hands on them DID GET HEALED. Only a few folks got healed because only a few let Jesus pray for them. And when it's speaking of no 'mighty' work being done it's not speaking to the degree of the miracle, i.e, healing someone with a cold as opposed to healing a cripple, but 'mighty' in regards to the fact there weren't many miracles period because not many allowed Jesus to pray for them due to their unbelief toward Him in who he was.

    Look at the multitudes Jesus prayed for and all the healings and miracles he did over His ministry (I don't supposed the books of the world could hold them). Do you think that in a crowd of several thousand where all were healed that all of them had perfect lives? Perfect faith? No one with unbelief? No one with unforgiveness? No one with bitterness? Etc, etc, etc? Of course they did, but they still got healed. The difference was their unbelief didn't keep them from letting Jesus pray for them as they did in Nazareth.

    From what I can see, with the unhindered power that Jesus walked in, all you needed was enough faith to let Jesus pray for you. If you did, then you got healed. If you're unbelief stopped you from letting Him praying for you, then obviously you didn't get healed.

    When Jesus was addressing the disciples on why they couldn't heal the lunatic boy, He said to the MINISTERS, the DISCIPLES, it was because of YOUR unbelief. Then he gave them the remedy for their unbelief, prayer and fasting. The prayer and fasting wasn't dealing with the devil, it was dealing with the disciples spiritual condition that kept the power from flowing through them like it did Jesus. Unbelief was the root cause. So the fasting and prayer deals with the root cause.

    Let's look at something closer in regards to this. In Luke 11 Jesus said to the disciples in regards to casting the devil out that He did it by 'the finger of God'. The Matthew account says 'Spirit of God'. So the finger of God is the Spirit of God, and Jesus said it was by the power of the Spirit that He cast out the devil. So let's connect this back to Matthew where the disciples couldn't cast the devil out, but Jesus could.

    How did Jesus do it? By the Spirit of God. So then how would the disciples do it? By the Spirit of God. So when Jesus spoke to the devil, it came out. When the disciples did the devil didn't. So what was the difference? The Spirit of God 'showing up' so to speak. So their unbelief didn't really directly affect the devil, meaning the devil wasn't in the kid monitoring their faith or unbelief and deciding on whether to come out or not. The devil (and sickness and disease) is defeated. He's not our problem. If the Spirit of God 'shows up', that devil is coming out. So our unbelief doesn't affect the devil or the disease or whatever, it affects whether the Spirit of God 'shows up' or not and manifests and drives the devil or disease out!

    I said all that to say this: Jesus put the emphasis on the minister's unbelief and not those being ministered to. It appears to me, with Jesus being the example, that if the ministers are not being hindered by their unbelief, then the person being prayed for will be healed as long as that person allows the minister to pray for them. And one way we combat our unbelief as ministers is not being afraid to declare that Jesus will heal them and not being afraid to lay hands on people for healing and deliverance. I think it starts with us just being bold in the highways and byways where ministering to the bound is concerned. Boldness is faith in action.
    Some times people will let ministers lay hands on them just to prove that nothing will happen when they do so. So even if they had let Jesus lay hands on them they could still have been in unbelief. Jesus ties unbelief to a hardness of heart elsewhere :

    Mark 16:14 Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen.

    When it says in Mark 6 and Matt 13 that Jesus marvelled at their unbelief it does not say that the reason why he thought they were full of unbelief was that they would not let him lay hands on them. It only says that the result was that he only layed hands on a few and they were healed. It may well be that he sensed or discerned that wall of unbelief directly and didn't lay hands on them, irrespective of whether they would have let him or not.

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  3. #12
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Besides, the onlaying of hands is not essential for healing to happen. We have the example of the handkerchiefs and the shadow of Peter in the Bible. I have seen people get healed without laying hands on them many times. In one of his videos Todd White talks about people running away from him when he asks to lay hands on them for them to be healed and then he says "too late" and they get healed while running away and they even get upset about it. Is that unbelief ? Not necessarily. It could be that they hurt deep inside for instance and that is something different.

  4. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    The new birth has already manifested at the level of the human spirit (by the infusion of the Holy Spirit) and that is sufficient for salvation. That is a bit different to healing being a reality in Christ but not necessarily manifest in the body and soul.
    It is that same Spirit who gives people the assurances of everything else He has provided for them so it is indeed the same thing. Let us not fuss over semantics.
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  6. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by victoryword View Post
    It is that same Spirit who gives people the assurances of everything else He has provided for them so it is indeed the same thing. Let us not fuss over semantics.
    Well the salvation of my human spirit has already manifested, I'm not waiting in faith for that to happen. You could say that I'm waiting in faith for my complete redemption, spirit, soul and body, which will only happen upon my physical death or if Jesus returns before that. But I don't think that that would be quite the same thing. That's more like a future hope that rests in my general faith in the resurrected Christ.

  7. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by fuego View Post
    I believed like this for many years of course because that's how we were taught in WOF. But the more I began to study it, I now disagree with with it generally speaking. Let's take the "Now He could do no mighty work there, except that He laid His hands on a few sick people and healed them. And He marveled because of their unbelief". We were always taught this with the impression that Jesus laid hands on a lot of people but all of them didn't get healed due to their unbelief. In other words their unbelief actually stopped the power of God even though Jesus laid hands on them. I don't see it that way know. The people He laid hands on DID get healed. In other words, unbelief didn't stop the power of God, the unbelief kept them from letting Him pray for them in the first place. Every one that allowed Jesus to lay hands on them DID GET HEALED. Only a few folks got healed because only a few let Jesus pray for them. And when it's speaking of no 'mighty' work being done it's not speaking to the degree of the miracle, i.e, healing someone with a cold as opposed to healing a cripple, but 'mighty' in regards to the fact there weren't many miracles period because not many allowed Jesus to pray for them due to their unbelief toward Him in who he was.

    Look at the multitudes Jesus prayed for and all the healings and miracles he did over His ministry (I don't supposed the books of the world could hold them). Do you think that in a crowd of several thousand where all were healed that all of them had perfect lives? Perfect faith? No one with unbelief? No one with unforgiveness? No one with bitterness? Etc, etc, etc? Of course they did, but they still got healed. The difference was their unbelief didn't keep them from letting Jesus pray for them as they did in Nazareth.

    From what I can see, with the unhindered power that Jesus walked in, all you needed was enough faith to let Jesus pray for you. If you did, then you got healed. If you're unbelief stopped you from letting Him praying for you, then obviously you didn't get healed.

    When Jesus was addressing the disciples on why they couldn't heal the lunatic boy, He said to the MINISTERS, the DISCIPLES, it was because of YOUR unbelief. Then he gave them the remedy for their unbelief, prayer and fasting. The prayer and fasting wasn't dealing with the devil, it was dealing with the disciples spiritual condition that kept the power from flowing through them like it did Jesus. Unbelief was the root cause. So the fasting and prayer deals with the root cause.

    Let's look at something closer in regards to this. In Luke 11 Jesus said to the disciples in regards to casting the devil out that He did it by 'the finger of God'. The Matthew account says 'Spirit of God'. So the finger of God is the Spirit of God, and Jesus said it was by the power of the Spirit that He cast out the devil. So let's connect this back to Matthew where the disciples couldn't cast the devil out, but Jesus could.

    How did Jesus do it? By the Spirit of God. So then how would the disciples do it? By the Spirit of God. So when Jesus spoke to the devil, it came out. When the disciples did the devil didn't. So what was the difference? The Spirit of God 'showing up' so to speak. So their unbelief didn't really directly affect the devil, meaning the devil wasn't in the kid monitoring their faith or unbelief and deciding on whether to come out or not. The devil (and sickness and disease) is defeated. He's not our problem. If the Spirit of God 'shows up', that devil is coming out. So our unbelief doesn't affect the devil or the disease or whatever, it affects whether the Spirit of God 'shows up' or not and manifests and drives the devil or disease out!

    I said all that to say this: Jesus put the emphasis on the minister's unbelief and not those being ministered to. It appears to me, with Jesus being the example, that if the ministers are not being hindered by their unbelief, then the person being prayed for will be healed as long as that person allows the minister to pray for them. And one way we combat our unbelief as ministers is not being afraid to declare that Jesus will heal them and not being afraid to lay hands on people for healing and deliverance. I think it starts with us just being bold in the highways and byways where ministering to the bound is concerned. Boldness is faith in action.
    I know that this has become a popular rebuttal to faith-confession teaching but this ideology would have to conclude either that:

    a. Healing is a separate thing that is ministered to people that requires only the faith of the minister and no faith on the part of the recipient or,
    b. Everything that we minister requires only the faith of the minister to include the new birth, Holy Spirit baptism, sanctification to live holy, etc. (In the latter example, if people I prayed for to be sanctified remain in sin then it is my fault because I did not have enough faith as a man of God).

    "a" would be problematic since Jesus often gave credit to the faith of those who received their healing:

    But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour. (Matt. 9:22)

    And Jesus said unto him, Go thy way; thy faith hath made thee whole. And immediately he received his sight, and followed Jesus in the way (Mark 10:52)

    Faith RECEIVES what God has given. If there is no real faith required on the part of the recipient then either they will never receive of if they do (in the case of the gifts of healings) they will not keep it and they will lose it. If faith is not required on the part of the sick one then let us no longer teach God's Word to them. Let's teach it only to those who will minister and make them bear the full responsibility for getting people healed. That way, if I pray for so-and-so and they have no Word in them and they do not get healed then I can blame it on me no matter how much Word I have in me and despite the fact that I have always received healing when from God for myself.

    Let me end this by saying that I have been amazed over the last couple of decades how we have division on healing and faith even amongst those of us who all believe that God heals (and is generally willing to do so). But I think that the men of God such as Kenneth E. Hagin, Oral Roberts and others knew what they were talking about not only from their personal study of God's Word but from their years of experience in seeing results in the case of healing.
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    Vindicating God Ministries
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  9. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Well the salvation of my human spirit has already manifested, I'm not waiting in faith for that to happen. You could say that I'm waiting in faith for my complete redemption, spirit, soul and body, which will only happen upon my physical death or if Jesus returns before that. But I don't think that that would be quite the same thing. That's more like a future hope that rests in my general faith in the resurrected Christ.
    Perhaps that is your experience but there are some who must continue to believe and acknowledge that they are saved since so many people have doubted their salvation. This is why John wrote "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God" (1 John 5:13).

    Since Jesus has not broken through the sky yet and given you a new body then your salvation is NOT full manifested. You still must believe and you still must continue to receive the assurance in your heart by the Holy Spirit. This same principle applies to healing and every other blessing from God.

    But I am already weary of fussing about it. The last word is yours.
    Christ's Victory Bible Teaching Center
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    Vindicating God Ministries
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  11. #17
    So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. John's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by victoryword View Post
    I know that this has become a popular rebuttal to faith-confession teaching but this ideology would have to conclude either that:

    a. Healing is a separate thing that is ministered to people that requires only the faith of the minister and no faith on the part of the recipient or,
    b. Everything that we minister requires only the faith of the minister to include the new birth, Holy Spirit baptism, sanctification to live holy, etc. (In the latter example, if people I prayed for to be sanctified remain in sin then it is my fault because I did not have enough faith as a man of God).

    "a" would be problematic since Jesus often gave credit to the faith of those who received their healing:

    But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour. (Matt. 9:22)

    And Jesus said unto him, Go thy way; thy faith hath made thee whole. And immediately he received his sight, and followed Jesus in the way (Mark 10:52)

    Faith RECEIVES what God has given. If there is no real faith required on the part of the recipient then either they will never receive of if they do (in the case of the gifts of healings) they will not keep it and they will lose it. If faith is not required on the part of the sick one then let us no longer teach God's Word to them. Let's teach it only to those who will minister and make them bear the full responsibility for getting people healed. That way, if I pray for so-and-so and they have no Word in them and they do not get healed then I can blame it on me no matter how much Word I have in me and despite the fact that I have always received healing when from God for myself.

    Let me end this by saying that I have been amazed over the last couple of decades how we have division on healing and faith even amongst those of us who all believe that God heals (and is generally willing to do so). But I think that the men of God such as Kenneth E. Hagin, Oral Roberts and others knew what they were talking about not only from their personal study of God's Word but from their years of experience in seeing results in the case of healing.
    James 5:14 Are any of you sick? You should call for the elders of the church to come and pray over you, anointing you with oil in the name of the Lord.

    It takes faith, obedience to "go to the elders". I'm not sure that this topic should be an either/or type of thing. One of the small issues I have with WOF is that you have to erase, ignore somwe scripture to validate key teachings. The Word does not contradict itself.

  12. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by John View Post
    James 5:14 Are any of you sick? You should call for the elders of the church to come and pray over you, anointing you with oil in the name of the Lord.

    It takes faith, obedience to "go to the elders". I'm not sure that this topic should be an either/or type of thing. One of the small issues I have with WOF is that you have to erase, ignore somwe scripture to validate key teachings. The Word does not contradict itself.
    One of the problems I have with people who criticize Word of Faith is that since they do not listen to all that has been taught and make too many assumptions then they start to have problems with Word of Faith.

    Take for example when you say, "I'm not sure that this topic should be an either/or type of thing. One of the small issues I have with WOF is that you have to erase, ignore somwe scripture to validate key teachings." This is based on the assumption that Word of Faith has made this an either/or thing which is entirely FALSE. No one in the WoF denies that the minister of healing must have faith. Kenneth Hagin taught it all of the time. The problem has been for the recipient of healing to be in AGREEMENT with the minister (Matt. 18:18-20). If the minister believes God will heal but the recipient does not then healing may not take place.

    If anyone has made it an "either/or" thing it has not been the WoF but its critics. But just like those liberals in the News Media, our critics claim things about us that only they are practicing.
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  14. #19
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by victoryword View Post
    Perhaps that is your experience but there are some who must continue to believe and acknowledge that they are saved since so many people have doubted their salvation. This is why John wrote "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God" (1 John 5:13).

    Since Jesus has not broken through the sky yet and given you a new body then your salvation is NOT full manifested. You still must believe and you still must continue to receive the assurance in your heart by the Holy Spirit. This same principle applies to healing and every other blessing from God.

    But I am already weary of fussing about it. The last word is yours.
    Let's call our salvation partial and not yet fully manifested then. But our faith is not for full sanctification or a new body, faith in the risen Christ is sufficient. Bodily healing in this life requires a more specific faith in one of his promises for this life.

    Am I fussing ? Not really, the details are interesting.

  15. #20
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by victoryword View Post
    I know that this has become a popular rebuttal to faith-confession teaching but this ideology would have to conclude either that:

    a. Healing is a separate thing that is ministered to people that requires only the faith of the minister and no faith on the part of the recipient or,
    b. Everything that we minister requires only the faith of the minister to include the new birth, Holy Spirit baptism, sanctification to live holy, etc. (In the latter example, if people I prayed for to be sanctified remain in sin then it is my fault because I did not have enough faith as a man of God).

    "a" would be problematic since Jesus often gave credit to the faith of those who received their healing:

    But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour. (Matt. 9:22)

    And Jesus said unto him, Go thy way; thy faith hath made thee whole. And immediately he received his sight, and followed Jesus in the way (Mark 10:52)

    Faith RECEIVES what God has given. If there is no real faith required on the part of the recipient then either they will never receive of if they do (in the case of the gifts of healings) they will not keep it and they will lose it. If faith is not required on the part of the sick one then let us no longer teach God's Word to them. Let's teach it only to those who will minister and make them bear the full responsibility for getting people healed. That way, if I pray for so-and-so and they have no Word in them and they do not get healed then I can blame it on me no matter how much Word I have in me and despite the fact that I have always received healing when from God for myself.

    Let me end this by saying that I have been amazed over the last couple of decades how we have division on healing and faith even amongst those of us who all believe that God heals (and is generally willing to do so). But I think that the men of God such as Kenneth E. Hagin, Oral Roberts and others knew what they were talking about not only from their personal study of God's Word but from their years of experience in seeing results in the case of healing.
    Fuego's interpretation does seem like a counter measure to the healing by personal faith doctrine. That is, it goes from healing by personal faith only to healing by the minister's faith only. I know that Fuego believes in healing by personal faith though. Agreeing in prayer is where these things meet in the middle. The faith of the minister, the faith of the recipient and maybe a manifestation of one of the power gifts in addition.

    Notice that in Acts 14 where the person healed is said to have personal faith for healing, Paul is still the one stirring his faith to action by issuing a command which means that Paul himself had the faith to involve himself and agree with the man who was about to be healed.

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