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Thread: Are Romans 10:11 & 10:13 false scriptures?

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan david View Post
    Seems to me we should have a working definition of "sovereign," as I see one as:

    "possessing supreme or ultimate power." I would suspect no one in the room disagrees with that statement. So while I get Oz saying that ultimate power is in the CAPACITY of God, I also see Colonels thought that God is not COMPELLED to use it.

    So maybe the synthesis here is that God has the PREROGATIVE of using his infinite power, but exercises SELECTIVITY in how he EXERCISES it.
    How does He exercise it? What does the Bible say?

    - Jesus came up and said to them, "All authority (all power of absolute rule) in heaven and on earth has been given to Me (Mat 28:18 AMP)

    - He (Jesus) who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords (1Tim 6:15)

    - and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful (Rev 17:14)

    - And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS." (Rev 19:16)

    Jesus is Sovereign. Jesus is King of kings. Jesus is Lord of lords. The Bible says so.

    We are but "with Him" (Rev 17:14)

    What God can and/or could do doesn't matter as God has told us what He did.

    Unlike the centurion who could say to Jesus "I also am a man under authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to this one, 'Go!' and he goes, and to another, 'Come!' and he comes, and to my slave, 'Do this!' and he does it" (Matt 8) most men's sin nature is strong enough to still rebel against the idea of being under God's authority, still wanting to be the ultimate authority instead, sadly even in the church.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    FunOz

    You did not explain anything in the above comments...all you did was quote scripture which we agree


    What you are actually doing is PRESUMING to speak for God. You are actually making the SOVEREIGN GOD say what you want him to say according to YOUR viewpoint.

    You do not have the authority to say what God can and cannot allow according to your presumed definition ...you can only agree with the scripture

    God as sovereign can do anything including disagreeing with Calvinism where it contradicts scripture

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  4. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    FunOz

    You did not explain anything in the above comments...all you did was quote scripture which we agree


    What you are actually doing is PRESUMING to speak for God. You are actually making the SOVEREIGN GOD say what you want him to say according to YOUR viewpoint.

    You do not have the authority to say what God can and cannot allow according to your presumed definition ...you can only agree with the scripture

    God as sovereign can do anything including disagreeing with Calvinism where it contradicts scripture
    What you are actually doing is PRESUMING to speak for God. You are actually making the SOVEREIGN GOD say what you want him to say according to YOUR viewpoint.

    You do not have the authority to say what God can and cannot allow according to your presumed definition ...you can only agree with the scripture

    God as sovereign can do anything including disagreeing with Arminianism where it contradicts scripture

    OK, that said let's get to this.

    You did not explain anything in the above comments...all you did was quote scripture which we agree

    A sovereign reigns TT.

    To repeat what I quoted twice before:

    "To say that God is Sovereign is to declare that He is "The Governor among the nations" (Psa. 22:28), setting up kingdoms, overthrowing empires, and determining the course of dynasties as pleaseth Him best".

    God actively rules and reigns over His creation TT determining it's course as best pleases Him. He is not a spectator on the side hoping that people will like Him. It is He who loves and we can only love Him because he first choose to love us. Want to know the best man can do without God? "the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually" (Gen 5)

  5. #24
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    Another quote to keep you busy
    Some times I think that is the purpose of that, to simply keep people busy with your theological musings.

  6. #25
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    Yes, to repeat what I quoted above

    "To say that God is Sovereign is to declare that He is "The Governor among the nations" (Psa. 22:28), setting up kingdoms, overthrowing empires, and determining the course of dynasties as pleaseth Him best".

    A soverign rules.
    Maybe I ought to write a book some time, called

    "The bondage of the will of God to the preferences and mindsets of the Calvinist"

    It should be a rather thick book I think.

  7. #26
    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    FunOz

    God exercises his sovereign will on HIS definition of sovereignty not Calvinist definition. Sometimes its compatible and sometimes it is not according to scripture.
    Because we don't agree with Calvinist perception of sovereignty does not mean we are disagreeing with the biblical definition of sovereignty.

    Calvinism does not have sole authority on what is the sovereignty of God

    You on the other hand have totally embraced the Calvinist definition of sovereignty which you have freely chosen but it doesn't make it 100% accurate.

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  9. #27
    Senior Member Ezekiel 33's Avatar
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    In discussing all of this we must not forget exactly why Jesus Christ died a cruel death on the cross-Because our heavenly Father desires to have a meaningful, living relationship with us. Someone who is forced into a relationship is no different than a robot. It isn't true love.

    God so loves us, and He desires us to love Him back and out of that mutual love have a meaningful relationship. He isn't forcing anyone to love Him, He is offering His love to us, even when we are most unlovable.

    We also need to remember that the angels were also created with a free will. God didn't plan for satan to rebel and take 1/3 of the angels with him. The rebellion was able to take place because of FREE WILL.

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  11. #28
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezekiel 33 View Post
    In discussing all of this we must not forget exactly why Jesus Christ died a cruel death on the cross-Because our heavenly Father desires to have a meaningful, living relationship with us. Someone who is forced into a relationship is no different than a robot. It isn't true love.

    God so loves us, and He desires us to love Him back and out of that mutual love have a meaningful relationship. He isn't forcing anyone to love Him, He is offering His love to us, even when we are most unlovable.

    We also need to remember that the angels were also created with a free will. God didn't plan for satan to rebel and take 1/3 of the angels with him. The rebellion was able to take place because of FREE WILL.
    According to the typical Calvinist rhetoric, true free will and it being exercised makes God lose face since he isn't controlling everything any longer. That doesn't sound so bad if the result had been that the world had been a good place. Calvinist rhetoric will have us believe that God controlling all the evil going on is better than his free willed creatures simply being responsible for it. They choose the exercising of power over character. The main problem with that is that even Satan is both capable of and willing to exercise all power if it is given to him, only God is able to display true character - as revealed in Jesus.

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  13. #29
    Super Moderator Quest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    Here's how someone else put it Quest:

    "To declare that the Creator's original plan has been frustrated by sin, is to dethrone God. To suggest that God was taken by surprise in Eden and that He is now attempting to remedy an unforeseen calamity, is to degrade the Most High to the level of a finite, erring mortal. To argue that man is a free moral agent and the determiner of his own destiny, and that therefore he has the power to checkmate his Maker, is to strip God of the attribute of Omnipotence. To say that the creature has burst the bounds assigned by his Creator, and that God is now practically a helpless Spectator before the sin and suffering entailed by Adam's fall, is to repudiate the express declaration of Holy Writ, namely, "Surely the wrath of man shall praise Thee: the remainder of wrath shalt Thou restrain" (Psa. 76:10). In a word, to deny the Sovereignty of God is to enter upon a path which, if followed to its logical terminus, is to arrive at blank atheism." (REF)
    Apparently you are responding to something I did not say..a preconceived notion perhaps? You need to not do that...

    ""To declare that the Creator's original plan has been frustrated by sin, is to dethrone God."

    IN context, what I said was that by saying God could not foreknow the end from the beginning and integrate HIS plan into it without predestining every detail...You stated this was illogical and I responded that to deny God could do that limits God's sovereignty..

    So again I ask, COULD not the almighty God work His eternal plan within the confines of KNOWING rather than orchestrating?

    "To argue that man is a free moral agent and the determiner of his own destiny, and that therefore he has the power to checkmate his Maker, is to strip God of the attribute of Omnipotence."

    To argue that man is a free moral agent and the determiner of his own destiny does not necessitate the next statement..." and that therefore he has the power to checkmate his Maker..."

    See, one does not equal the other...so can't an all Knowing God infinite in wisdom and understanding not fulfill HIS will despite man having free will? Why not? You believe he can't...I believe He can...so why does your interpretation of 'sovereignty' trump mine?

  14. #30
    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quest View Post
    ...so why does your interpretation of 'sovereignty' trump mine?
    That is what I saw when reading FunOz's comments where he basically used his version of sovereignty as the trump card against anyone disagreeing.
    Therefore in the Calvinist mindset it is impossible to defeat their version of scripture based on their version of sovereignty.

    The pack of cards falls down by challenging their version of Gods sovereignty which is not fully based on scripture but on mans opinion of the sovereignty of God.


    Now saying that I do not reject all aspects of sovereignty taught by Calvinists. In some cases I lean towards their version over the free will or Arminian explanation.

    I believe our duty is not to 100% embrace either Calvinism or Arminianism but to sincerely and honestly examine the scriptures and exegete without a doctrinal bias.

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