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Thread: Are Romans 10:11 & 10:13 false scriptures?

  1. #11
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezekiel 33 View Post
    Or how about God knew that when He created man with a free will there would be a failure on man's part, but He did it anyway because He desires a living relationship with man?
    Therefore, knowing before hand that man would fall, He also predestined Jesus to rescue His creation.

    Revelation 13:8 says that Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world. In other words, God already counted Him as dying for our sins, even before we fell.
    He also created angels knowing that some of them would fall. One verse can be interpreted as Satan managing to take with him a third of the angels of heaven. He also created Satan knowing that he would fall. What if Jesus hadn't been sent to win eternal victory over sin, would the other angels have remained sinless throughout eternity ? We don't know but we do know that Jesus' victory secures eternal freedom from sin for those who are in heaven or are saved into heaven.

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  3. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Quest View Post
    It literally limits the sovereignty of God to say He could NOT do that...no matter how 'illogical' it seems to you.
    Here's how someone else put it Quest:

    "To declare that the Creator's original plan has been frustrated by sin, is to dethrone God. To suggest that God was taken by surprise in Eden and that He is now attempting to remedy an unforeseen calamity, is to degrade the Most High to the level of a finite, erring mortal. To argue that man is a free moral agent and the determiner of his own destiny, and that therefore he has the power to checkmate his Maker, is to strip God of the attribute of Omnipotence. To say that the creature has burst the bounds assigned by his Creator, and that God is now practically a helpless Spectator before the sin and suffering entailed by Adam's fall, is to repudiate the express declaration of Holy Writ, namely, "Surely the wrath of man shall praise Thee: the remainder of wrath shalt Thou restrain" (Psa. 76:10). In a word, to deny the Sovereignty of God is to enter upon a path which, if followed to its logical terminus, is to arrive at blank atheism." (REF)

  4. #13
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    That's a lot of Calvinism. It would take ages to unravel the carefully constructed package that you quoted.

    Now if God is truly sovereign then he ought to be able to create a man that is a free moral agent if he so chooses and without anyone being able to stop Him from doing so, wouldn't you say ?

    Or is he simply not sovereign and omnipotent enough to pull that off ?

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  6. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Ezekiel 33 View Post
    Or how about God knew that when He created man with a free will there would be a failure on man's part, but He did it anyway because He desires a living relationship with man?
    Therefore, knowing before hand that man would fall, He also predestined Jesus to rescue His creation.

    Revelation 13:8 says that Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world. In other words, God already counted Him as dying for our sins, even before we fell.
    That's how some folk try get around the fact that God speaks of predestination in the Bible as they don't like the idea of God having His authority over them as their creator. They want to be in charge. It's just as it was in the Garden, there the temptation was "you can have the same knowledge as God"; here the temptation is "you can have the same authority as God".

    However Scripture (God) says:

    o- those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son (Rom 8:29) [that's people being predestined to be like Jesus]
    o- these whom He predestined (Rom 8:30) [again talking about people]
    o- He predestined us (Eph 1:5) ]not just people, but in this case specific people]
    o- we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose (Eph 1:11) [again getting personal and explaining why, because that's what He wanted to do]

    Yes, before the foundation of the earth it was known that Jesus would be slain, but God's attitude is not Que Sera, Sera but He works with purpose.

  7. #15
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    That's how some folk try get around the fact that God speaks of predestination in the Bible as they don't like the idea of God having His authority over them as their creator. They want to be in charge. It's just as it was in the Garden, there the temptation was "you can have the same knowledge as God"; here the temptation is "you can have the same authority as God".

    However Scripture (God) says:

    o- those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son (Rom 8:29) [that's people being predestined to be like Jesus]
    o- these whom He predestined (Rom 8:30) [again talking about people]
    o- He predestined us (Eph 1:5) ]not just people, but in this case specific people]
    o- we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose (Eph 1:11) [again getting personal and explaining why, because that's what He wanted to do]

    Yes, before the foundation of the earth it was known that Jesus would be slain, but God's attitude is not Que Sera, Sera but He works with purpose.
    The whole thing starts with foreknowledge which again starts with someone's choice to believe.

    If you believe and are therefore foreknown then you are implicitly predestined to be conformed to the image of the Son, that is called sanctification. Nothing to do with anyone being predestined to be saved.

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  9. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    That's a lot of Calvinism. It would take ages to unravel the carefully constructed package that you quoted.

    Now if God is truly sovereign then he ought to be able to create a man that is a free moral agent if he so chooses and without anyone being able to stop Him from doing so, wouldn't you say ?

    Or is he simply not sovereign and omnipotent enough to pull that off ?
    Another quote to keep you busy

    To say that God is Sovereign is to declare that He is the Almighty, the Possessor of all power in Heaven and earth, so that none can defeat His counsels, thwart His purpose, or resist His will (Psa. 115:3). To say that God is Sovereign is to declare that He is "The Governor among the nations" (Psa. 22:28), setting up kingdoms, overthrowing empires, and determining the course of dynasties as pleaseth Him best. To say that God is Sovereign is to declare that He is the "Only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords" (1 Tim. 6:15). Such is the God of the Bible.

    God's sovereignty is to do with His ruling of His creation, not His ability to create. So "if God is truly omnipotent then he ought to be able to create a man that is a free moral agent if he so chooses", yes. And He has. The trouble is that the only free moral agents sinned and sin is passed on to all their descendants so that although we're moral agents we're limited moral agents whose nature is to sin, to reject God.

  10. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    The whole thing starts with foreknowledge which again starts with someone's choice to believe.

    If you believe and are therefore foreknown then you are implicitly predestined to be conformed to the image of the Son, that is called sanctification. Nothing to do with anyone being predestined to be saved.
    You're not foreknown because you're going to believe, you believe because you were predestined because you were foreknown.

    You don't get to tell God what He knows Colonel.

    He knew you, He chose you.

  11. #18
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    What if God chose to create us then never interfere and never control anything, would that make him less sovereign ?

  12. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    What if God chose to create us then never interfere and never control anything, would that make him less sovereign ?
    Yes, to repeat what I quoted above

    "To say that God is Sovereign is to declare that He is "The Governor among the nations" (Psa. 22:28), setting up kingdoms, overthrowing empires, and determining the course of dynasties as pleaseth Him best".

    A soverign rules.

  13. #20
    Seems to me we should have a working definition of "sovereign," as I see one as:

    "possessing supreme or ultimate power." I would suspect no one in the room disagrees with that statement. So while I get Oz saying that ultimate power is in the CAPACITY of God, I also see Colonels thought that God is not COMPELLED to use it.

    So maybe the synthesis here is that God has the PREROGATIVE of using his infinite power, but exercises SELECTIVITY in how he EXERCISES it.

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