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Thread: Scriptures I Don't Believe

  1. #11
    Perhaps the topic should be "Scriptures I Only Believe When I Give Them a Different Meaning to the Usual Meaning of the Words".
    I agree!

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  3. #12
    Administrator fuego's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    Of course, as far as I know no one has a problem with that.
    Well, in a conversation with another Calvinist, the 'world/whosoever' there really isn't 'world/whosoever', it's just referring to the 'elect'. I think viewpoint of that scripture would fit your description of the thread.

    Perhaps the topic should be "Scriptures I Only Believe When I Give Them a Different Meaning to the Usual Meaning of the Words".

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  5. #13
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    A more general way of Calvinizing scriptures like that is to declare that God's sovereign election precedes and supercedes everything else. Who believes is governed by who is elect and the whosoever isn't open ended, it merely sounds like it is. People believe then are born again but regeneration is declared to precede and supercede that and who believes is again governed by who is elect. And so on. It's like Calvinism is simply inserted as a foundation for whatever else that actually resembles normal Christianity.

  6. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by fuego View Post
    Ok, here's one for you. Do you believe this without having to qualify the scripture in any way?

    John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    Whosoever means whosoever, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    Of course, as far as I know no one has a problem with that.
    Quote Originally Posted by fuego View Post
    Well, in a conversation with another Calvinist, the 'world/whosoever' there really isn't 'world/whosoever', it's just referring to the 'elect'. I think viewpoint of that scripture would fit your description of the thread.
    As far as I can tell everyone has qualifications on this Scripture. We all say "whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" and we should accept that we all see that as being true; but then paths digress as one side asks "who can believe?" (which is obviously Calvinism) and the other "who must believe?" (which might not be how anyone's thought of it but it's obvious from the discussions on the concept of an Age of Accountability that non-Calvinism has that qualification on John 3:16).

    So let's look at the factors involved in one getting to heaven based on these two theologies:

    CALVINISM

    1. A righteous, holy, all knowing, and just God loving you and choosing you before the foundation of the world.

    Non-CALVINISM (or for this post FREE-WILL-ISM)

    1. Your parents conceive you
      1. You have to exist don't you

    2. You don't spontaneously abort
    3. Your mother doesn't abort you
    4. You survive the birth
    5. The infant mortality rate in the country you're in
    6. How much your parents provide care for you
      1. The above are areas which could result in one dying before reaching the Age of Accountability and therefore going to heaven. We may not like to hear of countries with high infant mortality rates (including by abortion) but it does get lots into heaven, and a lot of these are from anti-Christian nations where the person would have little chance of hearing the Gospel if they grew up.

    7. Advances in medicines initiated by Christians
      1. Advances in medicine (which seem good) mean children are living longer, but where they were once all going to heaven now having reached the Age of Accountability some will go to hell. Oops!
      2. Also because of medical advances and people living longer people who otherwise wouldn't be born now are and some of these go to hell too.
      3. Ironically we see a lot of these advancements coming from work done centuries ago by Christians or in nations which, at least once, had a high Christian ethic. What was meant for good has resulted in eternal damnation for people who would otherwise have never existed. They're probably justifiable a bit ticked off with that.

    8. The religions active in your country
      1. Though the internet can influence this these days, so I could list "having the internet" too.

    9. Hearing the Gospel
    10. Choosing to believe the Gospel
    11. The external pressures on you for believing the Gospel
    12. Continuing to believe
    13. (according to some) Keeping up to date on one's continual repentance from sin
    14. Not falling away

    Getting complicated isn't it, and I'm not the well-est and this is tiring. So I'll not go into mental capacity or papabrett's "I think I became accountable for different things at different ages" or that this only works if "They're born innocent" which interestingly in some way appears to more of an Islamic concept than a Christian one.

    TT says "I keep it simple by believing God knows the exact age of every human when they become accountable as it differs according to their mental awareness" and that's well and good, but has he considered the (above) implications of that belief? One must do such things.

  7. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    How many medals have you won at the Olympics in Rio so far?
    I'm pretty sure fuego that part of the IOC manual could be translated something like "whosoever gets first, second or third in an event at the Olympics receives a medal" hence the question.

    "whosoever means whosoever", so how many medals do you have these Olympics?

  8. #16
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    I'm pretty sure fuego that part of the IOC manual could be translated something like "whosoever gets first, second or third in an event at the Olympics receives a medal" hence the question.

    "whosoever means whosoever", so how many medals do you have these Olympics?
    In this case it is whosoever believes, not whosoever wins or is among the top three.

  9. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    In this case it is whosoever believes, not whosoever wins or is among the top three.
    But they're both "whosoever" so how many medals have you got?

  10. #18
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    But they're both "whosoever" so how many medals have you got?
    The gospel doesn't specify a maximum number for who would qualify as being a believer. It isn't "the top three", nor "the limited number who qualify for the olympics".

  11. #19
    Senior Member Tehilah Ba'Aretz's Avatar
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    I don't know very many Christians who believe that the "10 Commandments" are valid in this era.

  12. #20
    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tehilah Ba'Aretz View Post
    I don't know very many Christians who believe that the "10 Commandments" are valid in this era.

    I believe they are extremely valid and still apply

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