Thread: Salvation: By Grace Through Faith? When did God come up with that plan?

Many Christians seem to believe that God's plan of redemption changed when Jesus died on the cross and was raised from the dead. Before that, you were stuck in some sort of limbo until the advent of Jesus in the 1st century.
There are some problems with this theology:
1. God never changes.
2. Hebrews has a list of believers who are saved by grace through faith before the advent of Jesus in the 1st century.
3. Jesus is eternal, by nature. He is the Lamb Slain before the foundations of the world.
There are many more arguments on various associated issues included in this subject. I'd be interested in seeing them and if possible refuting some. My goal is to learn so while I may make strong arguments, I am willing to learn at the end of the discussion.
As a caveat, I will be traveling extensively in the next few weeks and may be slow to enter the discussion at times. (I plan to guide a tour group this week, fly to Spain, Florida, Missouri, Colorado, Ontario, and Philadelphia in the next two months.)

The key difference is what you put your faith in. God accepted faith in the OT but there were always works of animal sacrifice, circumcision etc that people had to follow.

In the NT it was simple faith in what Jesus had done. We don't need to make any sacrifices

There are two important differences. Even though God doesn't change, his message has developed and the result was that man is enabled to change where he previously was not. Which alters God's relation to him.

1) Noone was born again until with the resurrection of Jesus
2) The fullness of the gospel message was not known until it was proclaimed, beginning with Jesus.

They were kept...not actually redeemed until the finished work of Jesus.
Their salvation was secured by faith in the future work of Jesus but not manifested until afterward.

Originally Posted by Colonel

There are two important differences. Even though God doesn't change, his message has developed and the result was that man is enabled to change where he previously was not. Which alters God's relation to him.

1) Noone was born again until with the resurrection of Jesus
2) The fullness of the gospel message was not known until it was proclaimed, beginning with Jesus.

Originally Posted by Quest

They were kept...not actually redeemed until the finished work of Jesus.
Their salvation was secured by faith in the future work of Jesus but not manifested until afterward.

Basically the point I was going to bring up. They were saved but not born again. They weren't new creations in Christ. But they were kept by their faith. Abraham was justified by his faith (as were many others), but not actually born again in spirit.

People have this idea that because God does something different means He's changed. Not so. His character, etc, never changes. That doesn't mean He can't do things differently or not do new things.

Another assumption is that since God doesnt change therefore he must have been doing the same thing since the beginning. That presupposes that there is no reason why he should wait before he does what he needs to do. Why didnt he make Eve the mother of Jesus then let Cain kill him etc ? He should have unless there was a reason why he had to wait. Likewise, the OT saints had to wait for Jesus to redeem them fully some time after they died, none of them were made perfect until they were along with us, as Heb 11 says. Jesus was crucified before eternity, okay. But that had to do with planning and intent according to foreknowledge, it was not a matter of fully applicable reality. A few of the OT saints received revelations of the Messiah to come but not all of them. Most of them believed that God would justify those who believe, without understanding how that would come about and come into fruitition only some time after their deaths.

Since Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundations of the world, the gift of salvation based on His shed blood pre-dates the advent of Jesus and His death on the cross. In other words, the ultimate sacrifice is eternal by nature and not limited to any time line. The fact that Jesus lived in the 1st century does not take away from the eternal nature of His sacrifice.
Since it was mentioned above, in what way does salvation by grace through faith differ from the "Born Again" experience?
Also, since it was mentioned above, the works and the sacrifices that preceded the 1st century did not provide salvation. They were commemorative and looked toward the revelation of Jesus. The works were not required but were rather allowed as a means of showing love to the Almighty. Faith was always the only absolute requirement. Don't forget that one of the "Sin Offerings" was a grain offering. It actually wasn't about the blood but instead it was always about faith.

Again, noone was born again until the resurrection of Jesus. They were credited righteousness but they did not become new creations in the likeness of the risen Christ. Jesus was the firstborn from among the dead. He rose in about 30 AD, he was not risen from the foundation of the world. Abraham was in Sheol/Hades at the time of the rich man and Lazarus, he no longer is and those who die in Christ enter heaven, noone is temporarily confined in Hades any longer.

Hebrews 11:13*These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced*them*and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.*
***
39*And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise,
40*God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

As Colonel mentioned above and used the word better
Hebrews was written for Jewish believers to show them the superiority of the new covenant....The word better is mentioned many times

Heb 8:6 - But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.

Originally Posted by Tehilah Ba'Aretz

Hebrews has a list of believers who are saved by grace through faith before the advent of Jesus in the 1st century

Jesus said NO man had seen God..

John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time

I'm thinking Jesus is quite knowledgeable on this subject and knows what He's talking about...
Jesus also said that unless a man is born again they cannot enter into the kingdom of God

John 3:3
Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

When we read the parable of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31) Jesus spoke about a "certain man" (this was an actual true story about actual people)... we see that Lazarus was "saved" as it was under the Old Covenant and when he died he went to Abraham's bosom which was paradise but it was not in Heaven where God is.

It was hardly being in a state of limbo, but rather was in Abraham so to speak and they were obviously in the upper regions of hell but in a protected area where they felt no pain and wanted for nothing.

Until Jesus Christ came and did His work and took His shed Blood to the Mercy Seat, it was not even possible for men to be born again so they could come into the literal presence of the Father. This includes Elijah and Enoch who are on record as never having died physically which is why these two guys will the the witnesses spoken of the the Book of Revelation... and they end up being martyred, but God raises them from the dead in front of the world (cool tribulation times stuff!)

So, all the Old Covenant Saints did go to paradise where things were much mo better. It was just a step below Heaven since they were not in the literal presence of the Father, but it certainly was not being in any state of limbo as this was a place God had created just for them to enjoy while waiting on Jesus to be the first born from the dead thus opening the way for the OT Saints to be born again and go to Heaven.

BTW, Abraham's bosom is no longer in existence as it is not needed since we go to be with the Lord once we leave our bodies (2 Corinthians 5:6-8, Philippians 1:23).

This is where catholiks get the concept of "purgatory" and they'll offer to pray yo loved ones out for a larger offering

It's soo slow that numerous well known so-called Christian leaders (some well known TV preachers) are embracing catholicism. Just goes to show they don't know what's in the Bible.