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Thread: Salvation: By Grace Through Faith? When did God come up with that plan?

  1. #21
    "Neither is there salvation in any other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." Acts 4:12.

    Jesus said if you confess me before men I will confess you before my Father.

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  3. #22
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    One way of including religious Jews is to define the OT saints as born again Jesus believers then transfer that over to apparently like minded Jews today who claim to love God but reject Jesus. I think some loyalty to Jesus and less loyalty to Jews is in order here. Jesus said that anyone who doesn't hate his brother, mother etc cannot be his disciple. That would also apply to countrymen and so on.

    Luke 14:26 If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.

    Jesus said the following to those who claimed to be children of Abraham (being his children would include walking in his footsteps) :

    John 8:42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.

    John 10:26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you

    People have had to choose between loyalty to Jesus and loyalty to their not-quite-christian wives, children etc. This is nothing new.

  4. #23
    Senior Member Tehilah Ba'Aretz's Avatar
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    I'm not saying that I disagree with that...
    Unfortunately, there are many who call themselves Christian who lie about the person and nature of Jesus to the point that the picture presented is actually a monster. I reject that obscene characterization of Jesus and I am sure you do too. The Jesus I know and love bears little resemblance to that entity. I will not ask anyone to swear loyalty to a false and evil representation of the One I love.
    However, Jesus and the Father are one. How then is there a separation between loving the Father and loving the Son? How can faith in God be construed as being faithless to the Son? Isn't the one who says they reject the Son but love the Father mistaken?
    But that is a side trail from the question. What is the definition of "Born Again" and what is the definition of, "Salvation by grace through faith?"

  5. #24
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    How can faith in God be construed as being faithless to the Son?
    Everything that glitters isn't gold. The question can be turned around "How can someone who is faithless to the Son be said to have real faith in God?".

    Maybe Moshe would have received Jesus if he had seen the real Jesus more clearly but salvation isn't found in "would haves".

  6. #25
    Senior Member Tehilah Ba'Aretz's Avatar
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    Oh, by the way... when Jesus was given a name above all names he already had the name Yeshua or Jesus. The name above all names is יהוה. (Yod, Hey, Vav, Hey)

  7. #26
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/josephus/hades.htm

    An Extract Out Of Josephus's Discourse To The Greeks Concerning Hades

    1. NOW as to Hades, wherein the souls of the of the good things they see, and rejoice in the righteous and unrighteous are detained, it is necessary to speak of it. Hades is a place in the world not regularly finished; a subterraneous region, wherein the light of this world does not shine; from which circumstance, that in this region the light does not shine, it cannot be but there must be in it perpetual darkness. This region is allotted as a place of custody for souls, ill which angels are appointed as guardians to them, who distribute to them temporary punishments, agreeable to every one's behavior and manners.

    2. In this region there is a certain place set apart, as a lake of unquenchable fire, whereinto we suppose no one hath hitherto been cast; but it is prepared for a day afore-determined by God, in which one righteous sentence shall deservedly be passed upon all men; when the unjust, and those that have been disobedient to God, and have given honor to such idols as have been the vain operations of the hands of men as to God himself, shall be adjudged to this everlasting punishment, as having been the causes of defilement; while the just shall obtain an incorruptible and never-fading kingdom. These are now indeed confined in Hades, but not in the same place wherein the unjust are confined.

    3. For there is one descent into this region, at whose gate we believe there stands an archangel with an host; which gate when those pass through that are conducted down by the angels appointed over souls, they do not go the same way; but the just are guided to the right hand, and are led with hymns, sung by the angels appointed over that place, unto a region of light, in which the just have dwelt from the beginning of the world; not constrained by necessity, but ever enjoying the prospect of the good things they see, and rejoic in the expectation of those new enjoyments which will be peculiar to every one of them, and esteeming those things beyond what we have here; with whom there is no place of toil, no burning heat, no piercing cold, nor are any briers there; but the countenance of the and of the just, which they see, always smiles them, while they wait for that rest and eternal new life in heaven, which is to succeed this region. This place we call The Bosom of Abraham.

    4. But as to the unjust, they are dragged by force to the left hand by the angels allotted for punishment, no longer going with a good-will, but as prisoners driven by violence; to whom are sent the angels appointed over them to reproach them and threaten them with their terrible looks, and to thrust them still downwards. Now those angels that are set over these souls drag them into the neighborhood of hell itself; who, when they are hard by it, continually hear the noise of it, and do not stand clear of the hot vapor itself; but when they have a near view of this spectacle, as of a terrible and exceeding great prospect of fire, they are struck with a fearful expectation of a future judgment, and in effect punished thereby: and not only so, but where they see the place [or choir] of the fathers and of the just, even hereby are they punished; for a chaos deep and large is fixed between them; insomuch that a just man that hath compassion upon them cannot be admitted, nor can one that is unjust, if he were bold enough to attempt it, pass over it.

  8. #27
    Senior Member Tehilah Ba'Aretz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Everything that glitters isn't gold. The question can be turned around "How can someone who is faithless to the Son be said to have real faith in God?".

    Maybe Moshe would have received Jesus if he had seen the real Jesus more clearly but salvation isn't found in "would haves".
    You see, that's the thing. I think Moshe actually has a great relationship with Jesus. He just doesn't understand that God and Jesus are one. This is really what is confusing to me. Don't worry though, I am not embracing "Dual Covenant" theology nor am I saying that Jewish people are automatically saved. I'm seriously questioning the need to swear allegiance to the Jesus image presented by much of Christianity though.

  9. #28
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    As if all of Christianity is presenting a totally different Jesus than the real one and Moshe doesnt have a clue what the real Jesus would be like. No, the gospel is a stumbling block to Jews and when confronted with that they find excuses. Accepting Jesus even though we dont see him clearly is what we have all done, obeying God while handing the excuses to him in faith that they will be sorted out either in this life or in afterlife. Obeying the call of the Spirit rather than the understanding of our own minds.

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  11. #29
    Administrator fuego's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tehilah Ba'Aretz View Post
    You see, that's the thing. I think Moshe actually has a great relationship with Jesus. He just doesn't understand that God and Jesus are one. This is really what is confusing to me. Don't worry though, I am not embracing "Dual Covenant" theology nor am I saying that Jewish people are automatically saved. I'm seriously questioning the need to swear allegiance to the Jesus image presented by much of Christianity though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    As if all of Christianity is presenting a totally different Jesus than the real one and Moshe doesnt have a clue what the real Jesus would be like. No, the gospel is a stumbling block to Jews and when confronted with that they find excuses. Accepting Jesus even though we dont see him clearly is what we have all done, obeying God while handing the excuses to him in faith that they will be sorted out either in this life or in afterlife. Obeying the call of the Spirit rather than the understanding of our own minds.
    Everything that glitters isn't gold. The question can be turned around "How can someone who is faithless to the Son be said to have real faith in God?".

    Maybe Moshe would have received Jesus if he had seen the real Jesus more clearly but salvation isn't found in "would haves".
    Those are good answers Colonel.

    Tom, as Colonel said, Jesus, His crucifixion, and the gospel is a stumbling block to Jews and sinners in general. If one could 'love God' and have a relationship with Jesus because of that, then that offense is taken away. That breaking of pride one has to do to accept the specific person of Jesus as the way to salvation is done away with. There is no other NAME under heaven whereby we can be saved, and it is acknowledging that specific person of Jesus.

    I can understand why you would have that thought process though, because of your love of the person and you want them to be saved. But this is the same thought process that leads people to accept universalism and inclusion. I know you aren't doing that, and aren't embracing 'dual covenant', but again, that thinking process is what leads some down that road. If you read Acts you see the great offense that was taken by the Jews to that person and name, (as well as gentiles), and one has to overcome that offense and receive Jesus specifically to be saved. The person Jesus and that name has to be specifically recognized to crush that pride.

    1 Corinthians 1
    22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

    23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

    24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

    25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

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  13. #30
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Funny typo there. "Crucifiction". Sounds like what 100 different atheists on carm would have said, 15-20 years ago.

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