Thread: What Has Happened Now That We Are Saved?

Originally Posted by Colonel

If you want to discuss those and the assumptions you read into them then you will have to quote them in full.

Actually I'm off for a few days seeing my brother who is in hospital but OK, why not.

John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

John 6:65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Acts 16:14 A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.

1Cor 1:30-31 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, so that, just as it is written, "Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord."

Phil 1:6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

Titus 3:15 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

John 15:16 You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

Rom 8:38-39 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord

Originally Posted by Quest

Colonel, in case I have never told you, I admire your perseverance...

Ezekiel 1:26 And above the firmament over their heads was the likeness of a throne, in appearance like a sapphire stone; on the likeness of the throne was a likeness with the appearance of a man high above it.
27 Also from the appearance of His waist and upward I saw, as it were, the color of amber with the appearance of fire all around within it; and from the appearance of His waist and downward I saw, as it were, the appearance of fire with brightness all around.
28 Like the appearance of a rainbow in a cloud on a rainy day, so was the appearance of the brightness all around it. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord.
So when I saw it, I fell on my face, and I heard a voice of One speaking.
2:1 And He said to me, "Son of man, stand on your feet, and I will speak to you."
2 Then the Spirit entered me when He spoke to me, and set me on my feet; and I heard Him who spoke to me.

I'll discuss some common Calvinist and/or OSAS assumptions that people read into the following verses.

Originally Posted by FunFromOz

Actually I'm off for a few days seeing my brother who is in hospital but OK, why not.

John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

The Jews of that time were very focused on the promise of a physical resurrection that would save them from Sheol (the grave). A Calvinist assumption is that someone who is drawn cannot resist but the next verse says that those who come to him are those who both hear and learn.
An OSAS assumption is that those who at one point in their lives were born again will be raised up on the last day but the implicit context is someone who dies as His, they will be resurrected again on the last day.

Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

There are two Calvinist assumptions here. One is that appointed means selected in general rather than merely called in that specific service. Not everyone who is saved comes to believe in the first service they attend. Some of them were "appointed to eternal life" at a later time.
The other is that this is a general statement that applies to all services ever held from Pentecost until doomsday. That is not the case, in the very next service in Acts 14:2 it says that many of the Jews refused to believe.
I'm not sure what this verse has to do with OSAS.

Acts 16:14 A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.

But that doesn't mean that she couldn't resist his drawing. Hearing and learning are two different things. Just because someone who is deaf has their hearing restored doensn't necessarily imply that they take heed of what they can now hear.
I'm not sure what this verse has to do with OSAS.

1Cor 1:30-31 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, so that, just as it is written, “Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

That doesn't mean that they didn't have to believe first. God does the drawing, then we have to believe, then God gives us new birth. We cannot do the first and the third and our faith doesn't automatically make us born again, it is God's choice to give new birth to those who believe.
I'm not sure what this verse has to do with OSAS.

Phil 1:6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

Again, that doesn't mean that we cannot resist and reject. It does mean that we can and will persevere if we walk in step with the work that he does in us.

Titus 3:15 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

A typical Calvinist assumption is that faith is a righteous deed. It is not. Our faith in Jesus is an implicit declaration that we are not righteous since we choose to cling to Jesus' righteousness instead of to our own. That faith destroys our own claim to righteousness. Our faith doesn't make us righteous but God chooses to credit us righteousness according to our faith. In legal terms he doesn't have to, but he chooses to.
I'm not sure what this verse has to do with OSAS.

John 6:65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”
John 15:16 You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

A Calvinist assumption here is that the choice the Father or Jesus makes is selective, that it relates to a subset of humanity. God so loved the world that he gave his son...it could as well mean that he chose sinful humanity as such. Or that he chooses those who let themselves be born again, that his choice relates to those who are found in Him. His main point is that they didn't choose him, unless the Holy Spirit had drawn them none of them would have come to him and none of them could have said that they chose him. God stretched his hand out to them before they had done anything to deserve or produce that.
I'm not sure what these verses have to do with OSAS.

Rom 8:38-39 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord

An OSAS assumption is that the above list is all inclusive. It isn't, it doesn't include God himself. He will disown us if we disown him. He has that authority where noone and nothing else has. That is why we need to fear Him and not fear anyone or anything else.

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Originally Posted by GodismyJudge

Hebrews 6:4-6
(4) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
(5) And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
(6) If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame.

That passage is part of a greater context that begins up in Heb. 5:11. The writer of Hebrews is addressing a problem that has to do with a lack of spiritual growth. The audience is stagnate in their spiritual advancement and that thought is carried down into chapter 6. The term "fall away" does not refer to apostasy, an abandonment of the faith. It is the Greek word, "peripiptos" and carries the connotation of a falling to the side similar to how a runner in a race stops running because he is not conditioned well enough to finish. The argument being made in Hebrews is NOT that the audience is in danger of being apostate or that they have become apostate. Rather, his point is that they need to move on to maturity, they cannot keep going back to the beginning of their salvation experience. It's tie for them to move on and mature in the things of the Lord. You gotta pay attention to the context because sometimes the context will span more than one chapter.

Originally Posted by fuego

It was written to Hebrew believers.

Actually, the book of Hebrews is addressing Jews who were believers and nonbelievers. It is not an epistle to the church in the same sense that Paul's, Peter's and John's letters were. It doesn't merely address issues that were applicable to just believers, but also to Jews who were wavering between following Jesus and returning to the OT sin offering. That's why the writer of Hebrews is drawing the contrast between the OT sin offering vs. the final offering for sin in Jesus' sacrifice. Hebrews 10 isn't talking to believers; it is warning those who are wavering that if they return to the old system, their is nothing left for them.

True followers of Jesus will never fall back into sin and apostatize.

Originally Posted by Ohev Yisrael

That passage is part of a greater context that begins up in Heb. 5:11. The writer of Hebrews is addressing a problem that has to do with a lack of spiritual growth. The audience is stagnate in their spiritual advancement and that thought is carried down into chapter 6. The term "fall away" does not refer to apostasy, an abandonment of the faith. It is the Greek word, "peripiptos" and carries the connotation of a falling to the side similar to how a runner in a race stops running because he is not conditioned well enough to finish. The argument being made in Hebrews is NOT that the audience is in danger of being apostate or that they have become apostate. Rather, his point is that they need to move on to maturity, they cannot keep going back to the beginning of their salvation experience. It's tie for them to move on and mature in the things of the Lord. You gotta pay attention to the context because sometimes the context will span more than one chapter.

"For it is impossible .. to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame."

Strong words for people who are allegedly still saved.

Originally Posted by GodismyJudge

Sounds pretty good... except for the rest of the verse...

Hebrews 6:6
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

"Renewing unto repentance" doesn't mean getting re-saved. The context will not allow for that interpretation. The argument is about spiritual immaturity and stagnation. So "renew unto repentance is hemmed in by that immediate context. What it means is that we can't go back to the beginning and get resaved. We have to move forward. The only way for us to get resaved is for Jesus to be re-crucified.

If it meant that you had to get re-saved, it means that you are no longer in the covenant, and the way blood covenants work, if you get out, you will not get back in. For you to get re-saved, Jesus would have to come back and die again and cut a new covenant every time that happened, and that isn't going to happen.

In the context of the argument being made, "renew unto repentance" simply means that you cannot go back to the day you were first saved and more to the point, you can't keep going back. The writer of Hebrews is frustrated because they keep covering the same ground over and over going back to the very beginning and never advancing into deeper, more mature spiritual truth.

There is NOTHING in the context that indicates that apostasy or a full and final falling away is intended by the author. But very often, most people ignore context.

Originally Posted by FunFromOz

Me either.

As I will with John 6:44 and John 6:65 and Acts 13:48 and Acts 16:14 and 1Cor 1:30-31 and Phil 1:6 and Tit 3:5 and John 15:16 etc.

So rather than allow that passage in Hebrews to interpret itself you have opted to interpret it from other scripture alone. Accuracy in interpretation, I believe, requires both..So since Hebrews seems to contradict those other passages one must allow the Holy Spirit to reveal how BOTH are truth within their own context and without...