Thread: What Has Happened Now That We Are Saved?

Originally Posted by FunFromOz

Thank you, it's interesting to see how others see it.

As I asked Quest elsewhere, "Do you then agree with the Roman Catholic scholar Desiderius Erasmus who in the 1520s argued against Martin Luther's assertion that the unbeliever is completely enslaved to his sinful nature?"

Sorry, I missed that question..but I believe Colonel's answer is accurate.

Originally Posted by Colonel

I agree with Martin Luther in the sense that the unbeliever cannot turn to God from the heart unless the Spirit draws him first.

I don't agree that the unbeliever cannot help but sin from conception and on. Maybe after he actually sinned he cannot help but sin but not from the beginning. It involves a choice. If he cannot help but sin then there would be no way God could judge him for it and call himself just. It would be like punishing someone for going to the toilet which they eventually cannot help but do.

Yes actual sin is always a choice..however..
....I believe ANY human can not help but sin because they are born alienated from God, spiritually dead....Adam and Eve were in intimate relationship with God but their sin brought
ALL under condemnation...to me that means they were aliened and until Jesus came there was no hope for mankind.

Originally Posted by LionHeart

Hebrews 10:26-29
26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.
28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses.
29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?
First, this passage is speaking of the New Covenant.
Second, there are three elements in each verse that are all addressing obedience, which indicates that the New Covenant is NOT UNILATERAL, but it is BILATERAL. Just like the Siniatic Covenant with Israel, the New Covenant also places demands upon the participants, obligations which must be met in order to remain abiding in the covenant relationship.
Third, "trampled underfoot" is the Greek word katapateo, meaning to tread upon, and figuratively meaning to "willfully disobey" as it has to do with law. The person who is trampling underfoot the Son of God is one who is walking in willful disobedience to Him. This also indicates that the New Covenant is to be obeyed, particularly since Christ is the New Covenant personified – in order to remain in the Covenant one must remain walking in obedience to Christ

But that passage is not talking about salvation. It is talking about those who have receiving the knowledge of the truth. That is not synonymous with being saved. Hebrews is not written to the Church per se. It is written to Messianic Jews AND it is written to Jews who may have heard the truth and even acknowledged the Gospel as true but have chosen to continue in their sin, namely continue trusting in the OT sin offering (which was still in force at the time Hebrews was written).

What we have here is a warning about apostasy. Apostates are not ex-Christians. They are people who have mentally assented to the truth, but fail to actually embrace it. They may participate in the external Christian community and have experienced blessings associated with that participation, but have, like Peter says, "returned to their vomit." Once you know the truth and reject what you know to be true, according to this passage, there is nothing left for you.

Trying to assign this to saved people who are a transformed, recreated people simply doesn't wash. Genuine followers of Jesus never apostatize.

Originally Posted by Ohev Yisrael

But that passage is not talking about salvation. It is talking about those who have receiving the knowledge of the truth. That is not synonymous with being saved. Hebrews is not written to the Church per se. It is written to Messianic Jews AND it is written to Jews who may have heard the truth and even acknowledged the Gospel as true but have chosen to continue in their sin, namely continue trusting in the OT sin offering (which was still in force at the time Hebrews was written).

What we have here is a warning about apostasy. Apostates are not ex-Christians. They are people who have mentally assented to the truth, but fail to actually embrace it. They may participate in the external Christian community and have experienced blessings associated with that participation, but have, like Peter says, "returned to their vomit." Once you know the truth and reject what you know to be true, according to this passage, there is nothing left for you.

Trying to assign this to saved people who are a transformed, recreated people simply doesn't wash. Genuine followers of Jesus never apostatize.

It was written to Hebrew believers.

Originally Posted by GodismyJudge

Hebrews 6:4-6
(4) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
(5) And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
(6) If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame.

Yes GIMJ that's what's written in Hebrews but it is easily understood as referring to those not yet saved or "presents an argument based on a false premise ... and follows it to its senseless conclusion" (See http://www.gotquestions.org/Hebrews-6.html and https://defendingcontending.com/2010...6-mean-anyway/)

So following the idea of 2Cor 13:1 that "In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established" to scripture (See http://www.logosapostolic.org/bible_...eWitnesses.htm) are there another two or three scriptures that speak to this and clearly support Heb 6 as saying that a believer can lose his salvation?

Originally Posted by Quest

Yes actual sin is always a choice..however..
....I believe ANY human can not help but sin because they are born alienated from God, spiritually dead....Adam and Eve were in intimate relationship with God but their sin brought
ALL under condemnation...to me that means they were aliened and until Jesus came there was no hope for mankind.

Infants arent conceived or born with the Holy Spirit, that is true. Even if an infant dies without having made a choice to sin it would still have made that choice some time during eternity so everyone needs to be brought under the rule of Jesus and receive the Holy Spirit and sanctification. Without Jesus, we are all lost to sin ultimately.

Originally Posted by GodismyJudge

If you want to believe different. that doesn't bother me in the least.

Me either.

Originally Posted by GodismyJudge

I'll stick with the simplest and most straightforward reading.

As I will with John 6:44 and John 6:65 and Acts 13:48 and Acts 16:14 and 1Cor 1:30-31 and Phil 1:6 and Tit 3:5 and John 15:16 etc.

Originally Posted by FunFromOz

Me either.

As I will with John 6:44 and John 6:65 and Acts 13:48 and Acts 16:14 and 1Cor 1:30-31 and Phil 1:6 and Tit 3:5 and John 15:16 etc.

If you want to discuss those and the assumptions you read into them then you will have to quote them in full.