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Thread: Was Redemption Planned BEFORE Creation?

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    Was Redemption Planned BEFORE Creation?

    Was Redemption Planned BEFORE Creation?

    http://victoriouswordchurch.blogspot...-creation.html

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    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    However, if God knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that Adam and Eve would fall and plunge us into this catastrophe then He is fully culpable for the evil that is in the world.
    The above statement implicitly rejects free will. Or more precisely it rejects "free will with responsibility"

    Revelation 13:8 is not a particularly good verse on God making up his mind on certain things at an early point. The following verse is much more specific :

    Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

    The Greek says "pro chronon aionion", or "before times eternal"

    Before someone starts discussing the meaning of "aionios" it should be noted that a retranslation of aionios into something shorter than "eternal" is precisely the foundation that theological universalists use for their theology.

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    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Regarding Revelation 13:8, this is what it says :

    8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world

    First, there is not one single translation in the list of 39 translations on biblestudytools that translates the term as you propose, nor into anything remotely similar :

    http://www.biblestudytools.com/revel...8-compare.html

    Second, even if the term is supposed to refer to "the disruption of the world", that still means that the names of (specifically) those not worshipping the beast were written into the book of life before they were born.

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    Quote Originally Posted by victoryword View Post
    Was Redemption Planned BEFORE Creation?

    http://victoriouswordchurch.blogspot...-creation.html
    There used to be a great 'governmental theology' website that had an extensive discourse on 'katabolē'.

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    FresnoJoe (08-23-2015)

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    Quote Originally Posted by victoryword View Post
    Was Redemption Planned BEFORE Creation?
    The Word says Jesus was slain before the foundation of the World and He knows the end from the beginning, so obviously... yes.

    God created man in His image which basically means nobody can force man what to do no more than anyone or anything can force God what to do.

    But, with the freedom to decide one's own course of direction comes reaping what we sow. Many in today's modern church do not understand what God did when He created man, so consequently they believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ is a one sided covenant that they have no responsibility in.

    This is why many today sow to the flesh and believe they will not reap corruption. God says that is mocking Him, and He doesn't appreciate it.

    I don't believe "culpable" is an accurate word to us as it seems to say God is responsible for evil being here and in fact decided to put evil here. If that's true, the scripture that says there is no darkness in God is a lie. But, since God did create lucifer who started this opposition to God business, the Father took full responsibility to do something about it as it would have been unjust for all men to go to hell over the actions of one being and the first man who bowed down to 'ol slewfoot.

    No, everything God ever created was perfect including lucifer who was created perfect until iniquity was found in him. What God did thru Jesus that settles all iniquity for all time is it created a standard and through all eternity those that work iniquity will meet the same fate lucifer did and shall be cast out of Heaven and away from God's presence.

    So, once we get over in to the new Heaven and new Earth, God's creation will never again experience darkness.

    Now THAT be some good news!

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    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fuego View Post
    There used to be a great 'governmental theology' website that had an extensive discourse on 'katabolē'.
    Isnt governmental theology simply non-osas non-calvinist meaning it is possible to depart from the faith, or is it something more specific than that ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by fuego View Post
    There used to be a great 'governmental theology' website that had an extensive discourse on 'katabolē'.
    Here's a study by H. Roy Elseth which is where I first began to understand "katabole" as I use in my devotional:

    http://www.libraryoftheology.com/wri...wardElseth.pdf

    Here are some more articles:

    http://www.libraryoftheology.com/writings/opentheism/

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    FresnoJoe (08-23-2015)

  15. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by fuego View Post
    There used to be a great 'governmental theology' website that had an extensive discourse on 'katabolē'.
    http://www.pinpointevangelism.com/li...mwritings.html

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  17. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Isnt governmental theology simply non-osas non-calvinist meaning it is possible to depart from the faith, or is it something more specific than that ?
    I think it is probably better known as Moral Government Theology of which Finney was a proponent. I don't think Finney adhered to what this thread is about though, but these type of subjects tended to show up on that website.

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  19. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by fuego View Post
    I think it is probably better known as Moral Government Theology of which Finney was a proponent. I don't think Finney adhered to what this thread is about though, but these type of subjects tended to show up on that website.
    Most of those Moral Government guys were open theists (before "open theism" was coined as a phrase). They were/are big fans of Charles G. Finney. But Finney certainly was not an Open Theist. However, Winkey Pratney in his book, "The Character and Nature of God," seems to believe that Finney toyed with the idea.

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    FresnoJoe (08-23-2015)

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