Thread: How Does Transformation Work?

More concisely, How do the Scriptures do their part in changing us to be more like Christ? Is "study" enough?

Originally Posted by Jonathan david

More concisely, How do the Scriptures do their part in changing us to be more like Christ? Is "study" enough?

Obviously study isn't enough. There are people who study the Bible, quote it, know it backward and forward, and aren't even saved much less transformed.

Personally, I think it's spending time in the Word, and truly meditating on it. And when the flesh goes nuts, or offenses come, then you REALLY need to do part A. That's when it's most pertinent, imo.

Originally Posted by CatchyUsername

Personally, I think it's spending time in the Word, and truly meditating on it. And when the flesh goes nuts, or offenses come, then you REALLY need to do part A. That's when it's most pertinent, imo.

Yeah, that's kinda where I'm going with this. For many mainline Christians, it's mostly/all about getting an intellectual understanding. Meditative aspects are given very short shrift and treated with suspicion. There is a great fear (actually ignorance) of "going mystical."

But there is hope, even for the intellectual-centered. I heard Ravi Zacharias, one of the great Christian apolegetic thinkers, say, regarding

"What We've Often Missed with the Spiritual Hunger of People:
We've made this Christian faith so far away in doctrinaire stuff, (that) we've spent very little time talking about how deeply spiritually-minded Jesus was too, in the spiritual reality of worship, music, the mystical and the prayer, and we've made him a kind of theoretical figure."

A merely intellectual approach results in a barren understanding but the resulting doctrine doesnt have to be incorrect.

A merely mystical approach results in an emotional understanding but this understanding may be as unspiritual as the result of the intellectual approach and it may also produce wildly incorrect doctrine.

The Holy Spirit guides us as we apply our minds and our emotional faculties and adds depth that is beyond any human understanding. But we should be careful about defining any approach as inherently spiritual, only an interaction with the Holy Spirit is genuinely spiritual.

Bill Johnson said in his book on renewing the mind, this is close but not exact, "any truth we are not obeying, then our mind has not been renewed to it and we have not been transformed to it." We like to think our minds are renewed in areas, and that our lives are transformed, but if we're not actually doing it, we've deceived ourselves and are confusing mental assent and mental agreement with the doctrine as a renewed mind and transformation. Self-deceived hearers and not doers as James put it.

Correct. And it's the very thing most Christians don't do. Frankly, I like the mystics, especially Madame Guyon. But the minute you use the word, "mystic", all bets are off. I know Watchman Nee isn't considered a mystic, but I consider him one, and he's one of my favorites, too. It's clear that he did a LOT of meditation on the Word.

Originally Posted by Jonathan david

Yeah, that's kinda where I'm going with this. For many mainline Christians, it's mostly/all about getting an intellectual understanding. Meditative aspects are given very short shrift and treated with suspicion. There is a great fear (actually ignorance) of "going mystical."

But there is hope, even for the intellectual-centered. I heard Ravi Zacharias, one of the great Christian apolegetic thinkers, say, regarding

"What We've Often Missed with the Spiritual Hunger of People:
We've made this Christian faith so far away in doctrinaire stuff, (that) we've spent very little time talking about how deeply spiritually-minded Jesus was too, in the spiritual reality of worship, music, the mystical and the prayer, and we've made him a kind of theoretical figure."

Right. That's a great point by Bill J.

Originally Posted by fuego

Bill Johnson said in his book on renewing the mind, this is close but not exact, "any truth we are not obeying, then our mind has not been renewed to it and we have not been transformed to it." We like to think our minds are renewed in areas, and that our lives are transformed, but if we're not actually doing it, we've deceived ourselves and are confusing mental assent and mental agreement with the doctrine as a renewed mind and transformation. Self-deceived hearers and not doers as James put it.

Originally Posted by CatchyUsername

Correct. And it's the very thing most Christians don't do. Frankly, I like the mystics, especially Madame Guyon. But the minute you use the word, "mystic", all bets are off. I know Watchman Nee isn't considered a mystic, but I consider him one, and he's one of my favorites, too. It's clear that he did a LOT of meditation on the Word.

MYSTICISM from Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy
The term ‘mysticism,’ comes from the Greek μυω, meaning “to conceal.” In the Hellenistic world, ‘mystical’ referred to “secret” religious rituals. In early Christianity the term came to refer to “hidden” allegorical interpretations of Scriptures and to hidden presences, such as that of Jesus at the Eucharist. Only later did the term begin to denote “mystical theology,” which included direct experience of the divine (See Bouyer, 1981). Typically, mystics, theistic or not, see their mystical experience as part of a larger undertaking aimed at human transformation (See, for example, Teresa of Avila, Life, Chapter 19) and not as the terminus of their efforts. Thus, in general, ‘mysticism’ would best be thought of as a constellation of distinctive practices, discourses, texts, institutions, traditions, and experiences aimed at human transformation, variously defined in different traditions.

JD: The tools of philosophy can provide a great framework to operate from, as definitions allow us to organize our thoughts in a useful and effective way. As intelligent Christians, we can use this framework as appropriate to the biblical-based model. From this definition of mysticism, we can reasonably extrapolate that it is the Holy-spirit driven transformation that uses appropriate "constellation of distinctive practices (e.g., fasting), discourses (e.g. Jesus parables), texts (Bible)...experiences (intimacy with Jesus)". This approach calls for some discipline and maturity, as opposed to treating the word "mysticism" as a knee-jerk form of occult evil to be avoided, as many do.