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Thread: Azazel the scapegoat

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    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Azazel the scapegoat

    No, that was not a typo.

    Lev 16:8 Then Aaron shall cast lots for the two goats: one lot for the Lord and the other lot for the scapegoat.

    The Hebrew word rendered scapegoat is Azazel. Over half of the about 40 translations use that word instead :

    http://www.biblestudytools.com/levit...8-compare.html

    The Hebrew word is traditionally interpreted as 'entire removal' by the Jews. It is taken to refer to the cliff in the wilderness where the scapegoat was thrown off.

    The word is used nowhere else in the Bible but it is identical to the name of the angel that the book of Enoch claims was the leader among those who interbred with women before the flood. So does that mean that the Israelites offered two goats, one to God and one to the fallen angel Azazel ? According to Islamic tradition, Azazel is an older name for Shaitan, their name for Satan. Some of the church fathers thought the two were identical. In some accounts, Azazel is a goat god.

    I dont think they did. But if we accept that the book of Enoch was largely written by the actual pre-flood prophet Enoch, then they did, because then the story about Azazel predates the Exodus.

    What do we know about the age of the various Jewish works ? Scientists can figure out approximately when they were written down based on language analysis and none of them are as old as the Exodus. But they may or may not depend upon an oral tradition that is much older or exerpts from older written works that were compiled into newer language.

    So I'm thinking that most of the book of Enoch, and most other Jewish non-biblical works, are much newer than the Exodus, mostly from the period after the exile to Babylon which is when they got better at keeping and compiling written records. They probably depend on oral tradition to some degree but it doesnt have to be very old. Jude confirms exactly one sentence that is from the book of Enoch as originating from the preflood prophet, otherwise we dont know. The rest or most of it could be much more recent than the Exodus.

    How does this make sense in terms of the scapegoat ? It does if we assume that the book of Leviticus is based on a faithful oral tradition from the time of the Exodus, meaning it is far older than the story about Azazel in the book of Enoch. Meaning that the traditional interpretation of the word azazel is indeed correct and only later did they create a goat god named Azazel out of that and then someone decided to name a (fallen) angel after this deity.

    Is there a Biblical precedence for this ? Yes, there is. Moses put a serpent on a pole and those who had been bitten were healed when they looked to this. Jesus confirms this as a picture of him hanging on the cross and becoming a curse for us. What happened later, still according to the Bible, was that the Israelites kept that very pole in the temple and eventually decided that it was an idol called Nehushtan (or similar) and they idolized it. But that was not its origin, even though some modern scholars who dont take the Bible any more seriously than they take any of the other accounts, jewish and non-jewish, have a tendency to think that it was like that from the beginning, that Moses worshipped yahweh, nehushtan, azazel and so on.

    The history of all this is very, very convoluted. Unless one decides to take the Bible seriously and the rest not so seriously, in every respect. Then it is more likely that sense can be made out of it. Not out of absolutely everything, but out of that which matters.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    But if we accept that the book of Enoch was largely written by the actual pre-flood prophet Enoch..
    Why would we accept this?

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    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    Not sure if I understand the OP

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    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    Not sure if I understand the OP
    It deals with the fact that most modern translations choose to render the word as Azazel which would mean that the other goat is being dedicated or sent to Azazel who according to the book of Enoch is a fallen angel. The theological implications of this "sin offering" are quite fascinating for lack of a more precise word.

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    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barrie View Post
    Why would we accept this?
    I dont know, ask a bunch of posters here who are quite fond of it as a source of information to fill in the gaps found in the Bible.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    So does that mean that the Israelites offered two goats, one to God and one to the fallen angel Azazel ?
    So God when setting up the temporary repetative sacrifical system for the forgiveness of sins which mirrored what Jesus would eventually do "once and for all" included a sacrifice to a fallen angel? As if!

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    According to Islamic tradition, Azazel is an older name for Shaitan, their name for Satan. Some of the church fathers thought the two were identical. In some accounts, Azazel is a goat god.
    Tradition "transmission of customs or beliefs from generation to generation".

    As Islam didn't exist till 2000 years after the exodus there is no way their (so called) traditions could go back that far.

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    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    So God when setting up the temporary repetative sacrifical system for the forgiveness of sins which mirrored what Jesus would eventually do "once and for all" included a sacrifice to a fallen angel? As if!

    @@@That was my point.

    Tradition "transmission of customs or beliefs from generation to generation".

    As Islam didn't exist till 2000 years after the exodus there is no way their (so called) traditions could go back that far.

    @@@I havent studied it but Muslims trace their ancestory back to Ishmael the son of Abraham so where and when they got their notions about Azazel isnt certain. There were things going on before the prophet Mohammad latched onto it.
    .

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    .
    And a good point that is. As Barrie asks "Why would we accept this?"

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    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    And a good point that is. As Barrie asks "Why would we accept this?"
    I find it curious that so many modern translations have accepted the notion that it refers to Azazel, as if they have implicitly accepted that the book of Enoch and/or other myths about the fallen angel Azazel are either correct or at least predate Leviticus.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    I find it curious that so many modern translations have accepted the notion that it refers to Azazel, as if they have implicitly accepted that the book of Enoch and/or other myths about the fallen angel Azazel are either correct or at least predate Leviticus.
    Is it perhaps because we now live in a day of Christianity-lite?

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