Thread: Is God the Creator of Good and Evil? (Part One)

Originally Posted by Colonel

I'm not sure I understand your question but the notion that "regeneration precedes faith" doesn't work well with most of the NT and many Calvinists modify this to where regeneration precedes faith precedes justification. Justification may or may not include some sort of salvation experience. The problem is that many Calvinists have never had any kind of salvation experience so it doesn't matter to them where the very non-tangible concept of regeneration is placed in that sense. Their theology forces it to precede faith however. Some Calvinists go as far as separating out the new birth from regeneration to where it becomes regeneration precedes faith precedes the new birth but I don't think this is technically within the scope of the theology. In the end, regeneration may refer to nothing more than the notion that God has to start the process of salvation, the sinner cannot.

What many Calvinists battle, is the notion that the sinner simply decides to believe of his own accord and with no influence from God and then he is regenerated. That is how they commonly interpret the opposite "faith precedes regeneration". This notion is commonly attributed to Charles Finney, which is probably not entirely correct. John Wesley made this a bit clearer than James Arminius did, to where it became "prevenient grace precedes faith precedes regeneration". Prevenient grace may amount to a very tangible conviction and drawing of the Spirit but it may also be very general. It can be based on the sinner being exposed to the gospel or elements of it like Catholics are or it can be as general as the Spirit drawing on people who haven't heard the gospel at all, to at least seek out the real God (meaning that will lead them to encounter the gospel later). The main difference is that the Calvinist concept of regeneration as the first step in the process cannot be resisted and rejected, while prevenient grace certainly can. Besides that, the resulting process may look largely similar. Something has to happen first then faith may come about and only then the person is seen as justified by God.

Interesting to also note that Wesley considered his view within a "hair's breadth" of Calvinism regarding the Depravity of Man.

Originally Posted by Jonathan david

Interesting to also note that Wesley considered his view within a "hair's breadth" of Calvinism regarding the Depravity of Man.

But the distinction is vitally important.

Colonel I asked you to comment previously due to you and VW having the most experience speaking to Reformed believers


Getting back to FunfromOz testimony where he said -

No, not at all. It was the third night I'd been there. I was taken by someone I'd visited to see if he wanted to go to the pub but he was going to church and I had nothing else to do ...

On the first night we were asked "Are you free" and my response internally and externally to someone who asked me was "No".

On the third night right at the end the pastor said "Someone here's having a burden lifted from them" and I thought "That's me, I'm free" and I was.

Apart from singing "I'm free ... I'm free ... and freedom tastes of reality" on the way home I did nothing.

He believes he was supernaturally regenerated that third night without doing anything....so how would you answer him

But we know he had been HEARING the Word preached for 3 nights so something was happening in his spirit and faith was being activated by the Word
He had this experience and then came the understanding when he said the prayer a few days later


It sounds similar to other testimonies where sinners have an encounter/experience in church and know something has happened.
So did supernatural regeneration occur doing 'nothing' or in an environment where faith was released by the spoken word?

It seems to me a person has to be HEARING the Word whcih produces faith BEFORE regeneration

How does he know that that equalled regeneration and how does he know it was irresistible and impossible to reject just because he happened to later accept ? In Acts 13:48 all who were called to believe accepted, in the next meeting in Acts 14:2, a number of them refused to believe.

Originally Posted by Colonel

How does he know that that equalled regeneration and how does he know it was irresistible and impossible to reject just because he happened to later accept ? In Acts 13:48 all who were called to believe accepted, in the next meeting in Acts 14:2, a number of them refused to believe.

I agree...the new birth happens when the Holy Spirit is welcomed..that experience may not involve the conscious STEPS of salvation. What Do you think?

https://images.search.yahoo.com/sear...g&action=click

What happened to FunfromOz ?

Originally Posted by Cardinal TT

What happened to FunfromOz ?

Just open your window and shout his name, Australia isn't that wide, he'll hear you.

Originally Posted by Colonel

Just open your window and shout his name, Australia isn't that wide, he'll hear you.

You're thinking of Norway

Originally Posted by Cardinal TT

You're thinking of Norway

Norway is only a few kilometers wide in one place, could try shouting from there and hope that the person hasn't discovered North and South on his compass yet.