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Thread: the true WOF doctrine....

  1. #21
    Senior Member wheeze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by victoryword View Post
    Wheeze, the reason for your "Black Friday" was due to the fact that Price refused to endorse the Calvinism that was beginning to spread at ORU. One of your people there lost a wife and wanted Price to endorse the idea that it is God's will for people to die young. I was told this by a couple of people who were there at the time.

    Many of you ORU students obviously did not have good history teachers. Have you ever read the books of Andrew Murray and A. B. Simpson? Hagin did. Smith wiggles worth? Hagin did. Cornelius Nuzum? Hagin did. Hagin was theologically influenced by multiple sources. You folks who attack the WoF always want to make this false Kenyon connection via D. R. McConnell, a thesis that was proven false by some of his own contemporaries.

    Common Wheeze, if you want to deal with the WoF then get the facts straight or resist the urge to type anything about it.

    Now let's go get some hot chocolate and marshmallows and enjoy the snow together

    well vw we agree 2 disagree.... i am not quite sure who ur sources were but that was their view of it not evryone elses. calvinism had nothing 2 do with this at all. and yes i have read many books by these men but mite i also suggest u read Dr. Charles Farah my systematics professor at oru, Dr. Jerry Horne my nt exegesis teacher at oru, Roger E. Olsen (i'll link his blog here) and a few others of note u mite take a look at. and yes kenyan was a huge factor n the wof theology at the time. oral roberts himself has mentioned kenyon in passing as well as kenyons theology in my theology classes at oru. i know of the man u talk about who lost his wife as he spoke in chapel the year after i graduated and i have a tape of his message. if it is the same guy his theology never reflected calvinism but thats not saying he wasn't a champion of it. i and others were on the inside of the workings of the admin including the luncheon for fred price after that chapel. he was drilled about his theology concerning the prosperity doctrine. calvinism never came up so where that came from i have no clue. now i'll have that hot chocolate with u but i prefer mine with a spoonful of peanut butter...

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  2. #22
    Senior Member wheeze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    Wheeze
    What happened to your Greek teacher?
    he was eventually forced to leave oru..... which was sad because he was a very good teacher...

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by wheeze View Post
    well vw we agree 2 disagree.... i am not quite sure who ur sources were but that was their view of it not evryone elses. calvinism had nothing 2 do with this at all. and yes i have read many books by these men but mite i also suggest u read Dr. Charles Farah my systematics professor at oru, Dr. Jerry Horne my nt exegesis teacher at oru, Roger E. Olsen (i'll link his blog here) and a few others of note u mite take a look at. and yes kenyan was a huge factor n the wof theology at the time. oral roberts himself has mentioned kenyon in passing as well as kenyons theology in my theology classes at oru. i know of the man u talk about who lost his wife as he spoke in chapel the year after i graduated and i have a tape of his message. if it is the same guy his theology never reflected calvinism but thats not saying he was a champion of it. i and others were on the inside of the workings of the admin including the luncheon for fred price after that chapel. he was drilled about his theology concerning the prosperity doctrine. calvinism never came up so where that came from i have no clue. now i'll have that hot chocolate with u but i prefer mine with a spoonful of peanut butter...
    Peanut butter?!!! You HERETIC!!!!

    I have Charles Farah's book "From the Pinnacle of the Temple" and yes, Farah does introduce Calvinism. He suggests going back to the Westminster Confession, which is a systematic summarization of Calvinism.

    On what the controversy actually was I did talk to someone who said that the people became incensed due to what they believed was Price's belief that someone dying young meant they lacked faith or something to that effect. I have talked with two professors who worked there at the time but this was years ago and so cannot recall the details of our conversation (and one of those professors was very anti-wof). Anyway, looked up your "Black Friday" on Goodle and it gave me this version:

    https://books.google.com/books?id=rt...oversy&f=false

    Not that this tells the whole story, but I found it interesting. May do more Google searching as time permits.
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  5. #24
    Senior Member wheeze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quest View Post
    The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth...where two agree...WOF in it's truest form is COMMON in most denominational teaching...
    WOF is all about transformation...

    Simply put..Thy word is a lamp unto my feet and light unto my path...agree with God in word and deed and watch Him demonstrate His will and glory in and through you...

    To attempt to negate and judge any choice He chooses to use to get that done is to close the door on some facet of His will..

    If He opts to make one wealthy to prosper the gospel, that's HIS business..if He chooses to send one to the poverty ridden streets of India, that His business...

    WOF is simply acknowledging that God's word is absolute truth and that if we agree with HIM and allow Him to transform our mind to His word that we become AS HE Is in the earth..

    He warns that we can't be one way inside and speak another so to agree with the world verbally while claiming to agree with God is double minded...and unfruitful..likewise speaking the scriptures with while EMBRACING an impure heart is also double minded and also does not produce Godly fruit. But to choose to agree and align with His word in heart word and deed is the IDEAL walk and that is the heart and soul of the WOF message.

    I grew up believing that God's interaction with His people was extracurricular...it was WOF that helped me understand it to be transformational and personal and determined by my willingness to embrace His WORD as absolute truth no matter what..that true transformation of the soul (mind will and emotions) only comes when we do that..make His word final authority in all matters...

    This begins to eat away at worldly compromise, philosophies of men, and human carnal weapons...
    contrary 2 some quest that think i am against the wof doctrine this is how i believe..... it is when u take it 2 the extremes as some in the wof movement do it becomes a doctrine of demons.

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  7. #25
    Senior Member wheeze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by victoryword View Post
    Peanut butter?!!! You HERETIC!!!!

    I have Charles Farah's book "From the Pinnacle of the Temple" and yes, Farah does introduce Calvinism. He suggests going back to the Westminster Confession, which is a systematic summarization of Calvinism.

    On what the controversy actually was I did talk to someone who said that the people became incensed due to what they believed was Price's belief that someone dying young meant they lacked faith or something to that effect. I have talked with two professors who worked there at the time but this was years ago and so cannot recall the details of our conversation (and one of those professors was very anti-wof). Anyway, looked up your "Black Friday" on Goodle and it gave me this version:

    https://books.google.com/books?id=rt...oversy&f=false

    Not that this tells the whole story, but I found it interesting. May do more Google searching as time permits.
    i can see where ur coming from bro. i'll have 2 read more of this google link. when this happened in chapel price had just laid a foundation for the name it claim it doctrine and i was totally shocked at his claims at the time. and yes price did claim that those dying young were essentially out of the will of the Father. thats when the fur flew..... at that point chapel was officially over.

  8. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by wheeze View Post
    since we are on the airplane kick let's talk about the original WOF doctrine as it was espoused in its early years. the original doctrine was formulated by e.w. canyon and handed off to kenneth hagin and oral roberts. i was there at oru in the 70's when the WOF doctrine was presented in its original form. kenneth copeland who was a disciple of hagin and roberts started tweeking it to fit his doctrinal formula of the propserity doctrine. oral moved this doctrine into the seed faith doctrine. having sat under orals teaching for 4 years i can verify this as he spoke often of seed faith giving n chapel. Luke 6:38 was a anchor 4 this doctrine.

    “Give, and it will be given to you: good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over will be put into your bosom. For with the same measure that you use, it will be measured back to you.”

    many times oral as well as the "WOF PACK" would distort this word and mold it into something it was not. copeland, savelle, price, bakker, avanzini, and others jumped on this band wagon morphing it into the idea that money given is more money returned. what began as a doctrine that i live by even 2day became a doctrine of demons. I remember fred price teaching this doctrine on a friday (which we call black friday even 2 this day. no pun intended) he was pushing the name it claim it theology which is a spin off of the prosperity doctrine. he asked if we understood and believed in what he was teaching and my greek teacher who was a greek orthodox priest with a phd in greek and hebrew stood up and yelled "NO I TOTALLY DISAGREE WITH YOU!" it was total mayhem after that and oral stood up and called us wolves n sheeps clothing. 1/3rd of the students left the next semester. my point is that this doctrine is very divisive, very destructive, and a demonic deception. many seem 2 defend these guys who espouse this stuff but i can tell u 1st hand i know of no one and i mean no one who has benefited from this demonic doctrine. i have seen the destruction of families, their finances, their faith, their hope, and much more because of this garbage.
    What a load of total nonsense .. So greek orthdox priests with Phd's in Hebrew and Greek are now the final authority ? ..

    Seriously why didnt these folks simply attend a Greek Orthodox school of theology .. Oral was right about the wolves in sheep's clothing thing..

    And yes Kids dying young is not the will of God. Has never been and will never be!!

    Wanna talk about destruction of families , finance and faith ? There is Nothing more destructive than Calvinist Theology in that regard ..NOTHING

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  10. #27
    Super Moderator Quest's Avatar
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    The doctrine did not bring divisiveness...disagreement in what seems to have been an inappropriate manner did..

    If someone stood up in your church and yelled that chances are that church is going to divide...because someone put down a gauntlet, drew a line in the sand where no discussion, no room for seeking Holy Spirit and unifying in love was an option.

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  12. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by wheeze View Post
    i can see where ur coming from bro. i'll have 2 read more of this google link. when this happened in chapel price had just laid a foundation for the name it claim it doctrine and i was totally shocked at his claims at the time. and yes price did claim that those dying young were essentially out of the will of the Father. thats when the fur flew..... at that point chapel was officially over.
    Wheeze, despite our disagreement on this issue, I think you are a good brother. But I side with Fred Price all the way on this. I wasn't there so I don't know exactly how Price may have said what he said (and I know that he can be very blunt) but I just had to console a member of our church who lost his son this past Sunday.

    The young man was only 27 years old. While I am very careful about casting blame on people for lack of faith, I really hate ny teaching that puts the blame on God. I saw a family that was in misery and pain over the death of someone who had so much potential. HIs father kept crying saying, "My children are supposed to bury ME, NOT the other way around."

    I just do not see this as the will of God and if someone came into the church I pastored and hollered about disagreeing with my teaching on this subject I would not hesitate to put them in their place. If I allow ONE person to come i and start a controversy in the church then anyone would think that they can do it. Soon I would have anarchy and chaos. As a matter of fact I have done teaching where people have come in and challeneged me in front of my class (years ago when I was teaching on "speaking in tongues" a non-Pentecostal VISITOR tried to embrrass me. I set him straight immediately).
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  14. #29
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by victoryword View Post
    Still disagree with you whether you use the words "sufficiently" or "predemonantly" (a word you used in an earlier post). I listened to a lot of Hagin's stuff. I had many of his teaching series. I just don't remember hearing as much of Kenyon in his teaching as you claim that is over and above any other influences in his life. I read most of Kenyon's books and was blessed by Kenyon so I certainly am not attempting to downplay anything. I just simply do not see Kenyon as the all "sufficient" or "predeominant" influence as so many purport.

    Seriously, how much of Hagin's teachings have you listened to?
    I think you are confusing me with someone else. I don't use the word "predominantly" and I have never said that Hagin was dominated by Kenyon. I don't remember how many books I've read but at least a few. I don't have anything particular against Hagin.

  15. #30
    Senior Member wheeze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BAP View Post
    What a load of total nonsense .. So greek orthdox priests with Phd's in Hebrew and Greek are now the final authority ? ..

    Seriously why didnt these folks simply attend a Greek Orthodox school of theology .. Oral was right about the wolves in sheep's clothing thing..

    And yes Kids dying young is not the will of God. Has never been and will never be!!

    Wanna talk about destruction of families , finance and faith ? There is Nothing more destructive than Calvinist Theology in that regard ..NOTHING


    dont hold back bap! say what is really on ur mind! God bless calvinism?



    by the way the professors background had nothing 2 do with this..... he just happened 2 b my greek professor at the time. where u came up with this stuff i haven't a clue but i will defend ur right 2 speak under the rules of calvinism....

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