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Thread: Alcohol in the NT - Should Christians Drink?

  1. #41
    Senior Member Tehilah Ba'Aretz's Avatar
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    Cardinal TT I am not advocating any particular teaching of either Moses or Jesus as LAW. From the beginning I have advocated love as the only applicable law. With that in mind, I would advocate learning about the things God loves. These are revealed in the things God instructed through Moses. Of course this is not complete but it is an excellent place to start. One of the great problems in Christian theology is the lack of understanding of the things God loves and perhaps just as importantly, the things He hates. How can anyone grasp His love if they make no effort to learn of His character, His nature, His behavior or His self imposed limits? A lot of that information is tucked away in hints and parables in the revelation God gave to Moses. Remember too that grace without rules is a definition of anarchy and rules without grace is a definition of tyranny. Neither of those are in any way what is revealed to us in the teachings of Moses. Many who reject the LAW as they define the teachings of Moses are actually rejecting Gods revelation and adopting a false god in place of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. There is only one God! He is not schizophrenic. The Jesus of Christianity is the same God as the God who made Himself known to Moses.

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  3. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehilah Ba'Aretz View Post
    Cardinal TT I am not advocating any particular teaching of either Moses or Jesus as LAW. From the beginning I have advocated love as the only applicable law. With that in mind, I would advocate learning about the things God loves. These are revealed in the things God instructed through Moses. Of course this is not complete but it is an excellent place to start. One of the great problems in Christian theology is the lack of understanding of the things God loves and perhaps just as importantly, the things He hates. How can anyone grasp His love if they make no effort to learn of His character, His nature, His behavior or His self imposed limits? A lot of that information is tucked away in hints and parables in the revelation God gave to Moses. Remember too that grace without rules is a definition of anarchy and rules without grace is a definition of tyranny. Neither of those are in any way what is revealed to us in the teachings of Moses. Many who reject the LAW as they define the teachings of Moses are actually rejecting Gods revelation and adopting a false god in place of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. There is only one God! He is not schizophrenic. The Jesus of Christianity is the same God as the God who made Himself known to Moses.

    ok ...thanks


    When I was in Israel it seemed to me that Jews and Messianic Jews all had variations of following Moses Law....I suppose I shouldn't be surprised as that is human nature

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  5. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J. View Post
    Many here will explain the wine at the wedding as being fresh grape juice, fresh being the "best" wine.
    Deluded people might explain it away like that, but the facts stand against them.

    One of the most prolific agricultural products of that area was the grape. Jesus used vineyards grapes and wine frequently in his teaching because everyone hearing him would understand perfectly what he was aiming at. Sadly people today who buy their wine at the supermarket have little clue where it comes from and what processes are involved, and for that reason they make up all sorts of fairy tales about what Jesus meant.

    Random facts on grapes for those who think wine just comes from the supermarket.-

    The grape harvest was absolutely massive, far too much for immediate consumption.
    Grapes particularly for wine making are one of the sweetest fruits.
    Sweet grapes cannot possibly be kept for long as they start to ferment almost immediately in warm climates.
    Unless the grapes could be processed in some way to preserve them, the harvest would rot long before it could be sold.
    The best profit from the sales would obviously come from export because the local market would be saturated at harvest time.
    Export essentially meant long distance time consuming travel because most nearby countries would also make their own wine.
    Thus long term preservation was the most essential and valued preservation process.
    (FYI, Modern day cartons of fruit juices are only possible because they either refrigerate or heat treat or add chemicals to stop the automatic fermentation that will naturally occur.)

    And finally.-
    Well look at that folks, the most effective preservation process for grapes turns out to be alcohol, cos alcohol kills the yeast which rots the grapes.


    This is one of the most amazing processes because with no help from man, the sugar in grapes automatically turns into carbon dioxide and alcohol.
    In other words, it is utterly impossible to stop your grape harvest turning into wine! If you don't want to lose the fruit of all your labour, all you need to do is put some control measures in place to capture in a drinkable condition, all that God created.

    So when Jesus spoke about new wine and wine skins, he is describing the fermentation process that, other than modern day shop fed westerners, every family understood.
    22"No one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the wine will burst the skins, and the wine is lost and the skins as well; but one puts new wine into fresh wineskins."

    This scripture is just one of many that proves they drank alcoholic wine.
    The grapes are trodden out to extract the juice. That juice is put into wine skins to ferment. Those wineskins are animal skins and therefore not sterile in the least!
    Once inside the skins, the grape juice starts to ferment, releasing CO2 and turning the juice all by itself into alcohol.
    The CO2 starts to expand the wine skin like a balloon, which unless it is a stretchy new skin, will split and the wine will be lost just as Jesus said.

    On a different tack, alcohol as a drink was essential for life. Most water was polluted and dangerous to varying degrees. All sorts of microbes existed in water. One of the best ways of preventing infection was to mix water with alcohol, which killed the bugs.
    Insisting that christians in the bible didn't drink alcohol is a naive claim that only those who have clean tap water and buy wine at the shop could make.

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  7. #44
    I don't think you've been officially greeted Mr Drake, so welcome! If that is not your real name, would you care to share why you picked that username? Here's our thread on that:

    http://livingfaithforum.com/forum/sh...-your-username

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  9. #45
    I like drinking wine, beer, bourbon, whiskey, and Arak. Never been drunk a day in my life. I don't even know how it feels to be drunk. SO I am innocent in this area.
    But then again, I live overseas in Israel, where nearly all believers drink. I also travel to places like Europe, where nearly all believers drink.
    Even among Christian Arabs (Taybeh beer anyone) or Messianic Jews (mighty fine wine!).

    I also don't mind smoking my pipe or a cigar every so often on a blue moon with friends.

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  11. #46
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Some people are able to smoke tobacco occasionally without getting addicted to the nicotine. Most people are not.

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  13. #47
    Senior Member wheeze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nikos View Post
    People who do not obey the Word of God are in need of repentance. Whatever God has instructed us to do, we are to obey. He did not say that tomato juice was a "a mocker and a strong drink that is raging." No, He said wine was, so stay away from it and stop trying to find an excuse to disobey the Word of God!
    its a good thing Jesus drank welches grape juice....

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  15. #48
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wheeze View Post
    its a good thing Jesus drank welches grape juice....
    No can do, grape juice fermented within a few days in the Palestine climate, they had no refridgeration. Outside grape harvesting season, there was no grape juice.

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