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Thread: Did God know that Billions would go to Hell?

  1. #21
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by victoryword View Post
    No, because that god cannot be found in Scripture. It is only found in the philosophical systems of Calvinism and Arminianism.
    Open Theism is as much a philosophical system as Calvinism is, it relies on the idea that time should be considered a separately existing entity apart from God. In Open Theism, time simply "is".

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Open Theism is as much a philosophical system as Calvinism is, it relies on the idea that time should be considered a separately existing entity apart from God. In Open Theism, time simply "is".
    That is funny. You just said that Open Theism is philosophical because it will not accept a man-made philosophical concept about God.

    The Bible says that God is patient, that He waits, the He expects, that He will do certain actions, that He will not do certain actions, that He changes His mind, etc. All of these have to something to do with the fact that God's acts are sequential and so are His experiences. Even in Heaven we are told that there will be silence for a limited period of time during the last days judgments. With such an abundance of Scripture in which God's actions are sequential and absolutely no Scripture that teaches that God is "outside of time" then I am at peace in knowing that what I believe is BIBLICAL while you must continue to debate me on philosophy.
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  3. #23
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by victoryword View Post
    That is funny. You just said that Open Theism is philosophical because it will not accept a man-made philosophical concept about God.

    The Bible says that God is patient, that He waits, the He expects, that He will do certain actions, that He will not do certain actions, that He changes His mind, etc. All of these have to something to do with the fact that God's acts are sequential and so are His experiences. Even in Heaven we are told that there will be silence for a limited period of time during the last days judgments. With such an abundance of Scripture in which God's actions are sequential and absolutely no Scripture that teaches that God is "outside of time" then I am at peace in knowing that what I believe is BIBLICAL while you must continue to debate me on philosophy.
    And scripture says that a real God knows what the future holds. As you say, he is also able to and chooses to interact with his creatures within time.

    Actually I'm not saying that God is outside of time, only that everything is contained within him. Based on the act of not separating out time so that it becomes separately existing apart from God, certain conclusions can be made. One of those is that God is able to look at everything - including time - from outside of it all. If time exists apart from God then God cannot do so because he is not Lord over time, he is instead subject to time.

    Making God subject to time is a philosophical and highly unbiblical concept. I personally find it illogical and unuseful by nature but the main motivations for doing so revolve either around limiting God for the purpose of limiting him or (in your case, I think) in order to arrive at certain conclusions that one finds preferable or more comprehensible.

  4. #24
    Administrator fuego's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by victoryword View Post
    If you had foreknowledge that you would have a child who would later become a mass murderer and rapist and you had a choice as to whether or not you would get pregnant and have the child, would you have it anyway?
    I don't know if you address this or not, but that is exactly what happened with Hezekiah. His son became the worst king they ever had. So either God didn't know and healed Hezekiah according to his faith; or He did know and honored Hezekiah's faith without regard to future consequences.

    I'm not coming down either way, just bringing it up in case you hadn't thought of that example, which I'm sure you have. :)

    I think this is the real root of why some wouldn't even consider Open Theism at all, is that many have a pre-conceived notion that God must not just have absolute knowledge of past and present, but also future events in order for Him to 'be God'. "If he doesn't know all future events before they take place then he can't be God." That's basically it. Then when you show some statements that if one read in a newspaper, they would say 'that person didn't know', but because it's in the Bible and in reference to God, then they can't accept it in the same way because of the pre-conceived notions about God and what attributes He has to have to be God.

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  6. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by fuego View Post
    I don't know if you address this or not, but that is exactly what happened with Hezekiah. His son became the worst king they ever had. So either God didn't know and healed Hezekiah according to his faith; or He did know and honored Hezekiah's faith without regard to future consequences.

    I'm not coming down either way, just bringing it up in case you hadn't thought of that example, which I'm sure you have. :)

    I think this is the real root of why some wouldn't even consider Open Theism at all, is that many have a pre-conceived notion that God must not just have absolute knowledge of past and present, but also future events in order for Him to 'be God'. "If he doesn't know all future events before they take place then he can't be God." That's basically it. Then when you show some statements that if one read in a newspaper, they would say 'that person didn't know', but because it's in the Bible and in reference to God, then they can't accept it in the same way because of the pre-conceived notions about God and what attributes He has to have to be God.
    I have dealt with Hezekiah getting healed and later having a bad boy primarily in regards to people who use that as an example of why God does not answer some people's prayers or when they claim that God killed your child because they knew he or she was going to grow up to be a mass murderer. I often wonder why, if that were the case, he did not kill HItler, Mussolini, Saddam Hussein, Osama Bin Ladin etc. as infant.

    I have also dealt with Hezekiah in light of the fact that the future is NOT set in stone. However, never considered his bad-boy son in that light. It is a fascinating point though. Thanks for bringing it up.

    I agree with you. Most folks will read their Bible through the lens of a philosophy and not from what it plainly says.
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  7. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    And scripture says that a real God knows what the future holds. As you say, he is also able to and chooses to interact with his creatures within time.

    Actually I'm not saying that God is outside of time, only that everything is contained within him. Based on the act of not separating out time so that it becomes separately existing apart from God, certain conclusions can be made. One of those is that God is able to look at everything - including time - from outside of it all. If time exists apart from God then God cannot do so because he is not Lord over time, he is instead subject to time.

    Making God subject to time is a philosophical and highly unbiblical concept. I personally find it illogical and unuseful by nature but the main motivations for doing so revolve either around limiting God for the purpose of limiting him or (in your case, I think) in order to arrive at certain conclusions that one finds preferable or more comprehensible.
    I think you are doing nothing more than espousing philosophy while I have done nothing but provide Biblical examples of my position.

    But let me ask you a question. There are at least two familiar stories in the Bible in which God regretted a previous action He made. The first was when He created man and the second is when He made Saul king. WE would agree that God is sovereign, omnipotent, etc. If God is not "subject to time" as in, not necessarily having to experience history and events as they unfold, shouldn't God be able to travel back in time and undo the actions that He later regrtted?

    If He is then why do we not read anywhere where God has traveled back in time?
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  8. #27
    Super Moderator Quest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by victoryword View Post
    If you had foreknowledge that you would have a child who would later become a mass murderer and rapist and you had a choice as to whether or not you would get pregnant and have the child, would you have it anyway?
    You are relying on human reasoning to reach your conclusion? I gave you two scriptures that clearly say Jesus was chosen before the foundation of the world to redeem mankind..sounds like you are applying human reasoning to determine the nature of God?

  9. #28
    Senior Member Ezekiel 33's Avatar
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    What about God sees whatever He wants to see, no matter where it is in time? He chooses what to see, just like He chooses to "forget" our past sins. It is not that He is forgetful, but that He has chosen to put them out of mind.

    Are you saying that God doesn't have foreknowledge bro, or that His knowledge is limited, but not by His own choice?


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  11. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by victoryword View Post
    No, because that god cannot be found in Scripture. It is only found in the philosophical systems of Calvinism and Arminianism.
    Funny...I find Him there.

  12. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by victoryword View Post
    I have dealt with Hezekiah getting healed and later having a bad boy primarily in regards to people who use that as an example of why God does not answer some people's prayers or when they claim that God killed your child because they knew he or she was going to grow up to be a mass murderer. I often wonder why, if that were the case, he did not kill HItler, Mussolini, Saddam Hussein, Osama Bin Ladin etc. as infant.

    I have also dealt with Hezekiah in light of the fact that the future is NOT set in stone. However, never considered his bad-boy son in that light. It is a fascinating point though. Thanks for bringing it up.

    I agree with you. Most folks will read their Bible through the lens of a philosophy and not from what it plainly says.
    I agree with you. Most folks will read their Bible through the lens of a philosophy and not from what it plainly says.
    My guess is that WE ALL DO from time to time....you stated yourself that the concept that God would allow the birth of an evil child goes against your view of His character and yet you acknowledge that people like Hitler were not only allowed to be born but allowed to carry out horrors...God could have delivered Israel from pharaohs with one sweep of His hand yet He chose to demonstrate His power to Israel through the repeated sufferings of untold numbers of Egyptians.

    God foreknew the birth and betrayal of Judas...it was prophesied long before he was born...Did God make him that way? No..but He knew and the TIME He knew...

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