Thread: Beth Moore's Challenge--Lee Grady

Originally Posted by Cardinal TT

Is this in regard to the current situation or related to something else

TT, No relation to this situation. BM was also under attack for daring to say that "God spoke to her," but that is another story.

Originally Posted by Cardinal TT

A phenomena that no one is discussing is this....I have observed this for 3 decades
Because men were in power many abused their position - WE can all agree this is wrong

The feminist argument then came out we need more women in authority to balance out the men and it will bring more compassion etc etc

Every institution that has elevated women down the track you start hearing stories of abuse by women in these higher levels whether its govt., secular or the church.
Not many are seeing the correlation. The more women leave their God given roles the more evil seems to be perpetrated by women. Once when you saw the news it was mostly men committing horrible acts of evil but now it is common.
Women teachers having sex with their students, pedophilia and terrible murders

Those with ears to hear need to ask ...WHY????????

When men and women wilfully change Gods pattern a terrible reaping will occur


The more women are elevated in positions of power within the church the MORE stories we will hear of abuse by women

I can tell you 4 specific stories that I know by female church leaders that have resulted in terrible pain to those affected
1.A senior pastors wife also a female pastor who should never have been given that authority abusing her postion and the church exploded and no longer exists
2.My wife and I had a meal with last week a female pastor and her husband who could no longer work with the senior pastors wife and preferred to go back to secular occupation
3.In february this year had to pray and minster to a wonderful christian couple who were abused by another controlling senior female pastor
4. A senior female minister asked a pastor freind I know to save her church because it was dying. He under God's grace started to regrow the church and he told her to step down as she was the reason the church was dying. So she asked him to leave because she prefered her position more than what God wanted.

I do not believe these are coincidences but God is revealing to those who hear.

Scripture is being twisted to tell christian women you can have it all - you are entitled to positions in the church. You are called to preach and teach and be in authority etc etc etc.
I don't believe men can have it all why would I tell women that

I believe females can minister and be in leadership... but the church must be lead by the Spirit not the current climate which is the world influencing the church in womans leadership


Everything I say is not to dismiss abuse by men as they have caused the majority of these problems but humanistic solutions to these issues will not work

It seems to me that women can be as abusive as men when they don't need physical superiority to make it work. If there had been gender equality throughout leadership then the level of abuse from women would probably have been similar to the level of abuse from men. Not higher, just similar.

Originally Posted by Cardinal TT

You are 100% right many things have gone wrong with foolish male pastors and they need to be rebuked

But this is where we must get back to scripture. The primary authority leadership roles in scripture is male regardless of what the western mindset thinks or what secular govt is trying to implement
The church should not copy the world and say all roles must now be 50/50 male and female

The church should not make a woman a pastor just because she did Bible College and she can speak well. There are many roles a gifted female can do in the church as far as ministry
Women can heal, cast out demons, give prophecies, give exhortations and bring the word. They can lead teams of people at one church a female I knew lead the evangelism team.

My concern is the switch I am seeing where there is no longer any differences between men and women in the church and women can and should do everything men leaders do.

I still strongly believe that all women should be released to minister but only a few may be called to and ordained to positions of governmental authority.

I am against the AUTOMATIC ordination of all pastors wives to female pastor as this has become a liability and caused problems

It seems to me that male dominance in the Bible was more a question of the culture of those times than of God's will. Just like the practice of keeping slaves and even regulating slavery in the law (in a positive direction that is) were based on culture and not on God's will. Jesus made a point of talking to a Samaritan woman who wasn't even with her husband and he even did so in an informal manner Every last detail of that was outside the norms of that day and place. Some times the gospel produced liberty for women that they couldn't handle, the situation in the Corinthian church is a good example of that. Paul had to pull them back towards what the culture demanded or they would be acting out of rebellion rather than liberty in the Spirit. But the letters they received don't necessarily define the limits of liberty in the Spirit for women rather they addressed specific problems in that church. How far can liberty in the Spirit and (the ideal) "in Christ there is neither male nor female" be taken in practical reality ? Not so far that the genders cease to exist entirely except in a strictly sexual setting. That is going too far.

Jesus and the Samaritan woman is an example of God making a point in relation to cultural norms. Around the time of the Pentecostal revival he made a similar point by raising up Maria Woodworth-Etter to have what was probably at that time the most powerful evangelism and healing ministry in the nation or even on Earth and that was at a time when being a female minister was very difficult. She had sound doctrine and no scandals too. The same can be said about Aimee Semple McPherson, especially in terms of the size of her ministry. She eventually had some scandals but it didn't start out like that. What was God trying to tell us ? That his will for women involved far more liberty than the culture of that time promoted or even allowed, quite obviously.

What about today, is it still the same way ? Certainly not in general given the culture of absolutist gender equality but maybe in ways ?

Originally Posted by Cardinal TT

A phenomena that no one is discussing is this....I have observed this for 3 decades
Because men were in power many abused their position - WE can all agree this is wrong

The feminist argument then came out we need more women in authority to balance out the men and it will bring more compassion etc etc

Every institution that has elevated women down the track you start hearing stories of abuse by women in these higher levels whether its govt., secular or the church.
Not many are seeing the correlation. The more women leave their God given roles the more evil seems to be perpetrated by women. Once when you saw the news it was mostly men committing horrible acts of evil but now it is common.
Women teachers having sex with their students, pedophilia and terrible murders

Those with ears to hear need to ask ...WHY????????

When men and women wilfully change Gods pattern a terrible reaping will occur


The more women are elevated in positions of power within the church the MORE stories we will hear of abuse by women

I can tell you 4 specific stories that I know by female church leaders that have resulted in terrible pain to those affected
1.A senior pastors wife also a female pastor who should never have been given that authority abusing her postion and the church exploded and no longer exists
2.My wife and I had a meal with last week a female pastor and her husband who could no longer work with the senior pastors wife and preferred to go back to secular occupation
3.In february this year had to pray and minster to a wonderful christian couple who were abused by another controlling senior female pastor
4. A senior female minister asked a pastor freind I know to save her church because it was dying. He under God's grace started to regrow the church and he told her to step down as she was the reason the church was dying. So she asked him to leave because she prefered her position more than what God wanted.

I do not believe these are coincidences but God is revealing to those who hear.

Scripture is being twisted to tell christian women you can have it all - you are entitled to positions in the church. You are called to preach and teach and be in authority etc etc etc.
I don't believe men can have it all why would I tell women that

I believe females can minister and be in leadership... but the church must be lead by the Spirit not the current climate which is the world influencing the church in womans leadership


Everything I say is not to dismiss abuse by men as they have caused the majority of the problems but humanistic solutions to these issues will not work

I think the point you make in a nutshell is that abuse and evil know no gender...?

Originally Posted by Cardinal TT

You are 100% right many things have gone wrong with foolish male pastors and they need to be rebuked

But this is where we must get back to scripture. The primary authority leadership roles in scripture is male regardless of what the western mindset thinks or what secular govt is trying to implement
The church should not copy the world and say all roles must now be 50/50 male and female

The church should not make a woman a pastor just because she did Bible College and she can speak well. There are many roles a gifted female can do in the church as far as ministry
Women can heal, cast out demons, give prophecies, give exhortations and bring the word. They can lead teams of people at one church a female I knew lead the evangelism team.

My concern is the switch I am seeing where there is no longer any differences between men and women in the church and women can and should do everything men leaders do.

I still strongly believe that all women should be released to minister but only a few may be called to and ordained to positions of governmental authority.

I am against the AUTOMATIC ordination of all pastors wives to female pastor as this has become a liability and caused problems

I find it interesting that throughout the scriptures we see male leadership and the rare female....I often have heard the dismissal of that as 'male dominance and oppression of those historical times'. There is an element of truth, that God never viewed women as inferior, but He clearly does view men and women as different...not in the spiritual sense, there is no male nor female....but it has to be acknowledged He called 12 MEN...When He chose the 12 tribes He chose 12 SONS...

When we distinguish between the difference between the terms inferior and different this goes a long way in leveling the playing field of discussion.

Secondly as TT noted abuse of power is not gender restrictive....it's a human sin thing....

Originally Posted by Colonel

Jesus and the Samaritan woman is an example of God making a point in relation to cultural norms. Around the time of the Pentecostal revival he made a similar point by raising up Maria Woodworth-Etter to have what was probably at that time the most powerful evangelism and healing ministry in the nation or even on Earth and that was at a time when being a female minister was very difficult. She had sound doctrine and no scandals too. The same can be said about Aimee Semple McPherson, especially in terms of the size of her ministry. She eventually had some scandals but it didn't start out like that. What was God trying to tell us ? That his will for women involved far more liberty than the culture of that time promoted or even allowed, quite obviously.

What about today, is it still the same way ? Certainly not in general given the culture of absolutist gender equality but maybe in ways ?

I have always been very leery of the argument that God's word was restricted by cultural norms...that God was restrained by them 'back then'.

The context of the Samaritan woman was religious division and perception of the purpose and worship of Messiah...the only issue speaking to her was she was a Samaritan...not that she was a 'woman'.

Jesus had women who accompanied His journey and they ministered to His needs and likely those of the disciples...

When Judas died a male replaced him in the inner circle...God could have made the statement right there...He could have chosen a woman...and had that been HIS Mind and will, He would have...

Originally Posted by Quest

I have always been very leery of the argument that God's word was restricted by cultural norms...that God was restrained by them 'back then'.

The context of the Samaritan woman was religious division and perception of the purpose and worship of Messiah...the only issue speaking to her was she was a Samaritan...not that she was a 'woman'.

Jesus had women who accompanied His journey and they ministered to His needs and likely those of the disciples...

When Judas died a male replaced him in the inner circle...God could have made the statement right there...He could have chosen a woman...and had that been HIS Mind and will, He would have...

John 4:27 And at this point His disciples came, and they marveled that He talked with a woman

They had their specific cultural ways of interacting, including in terms of mixed genders and what Jesus did in this passage was not within those norms.

Are you suggesting that the law's regulations on slavery reflect God's eternal best will for a society rather than his regulating the culture of that day and place in a positive direction without changing it entirely (yet) ? Be careful what you answer now, Quest.

Good point Quest

Jesus broke so many false cultural traditions that it angered the leaders....they were going to kill him anyway why not add one more and make half the apostles women

The fact is that male leadership is not a cultural thing it was created in the beginning with Adam

Colonel
Are you saying slavery and male leadership are similar and both man made customs?