Thread: The prophetic and supernatural evangelism deception

Originally Posted by wheeze

sticking up for Zek here colonel but I think ur nitpicking slightly...... i am sure faith is in the mix...

The sentence can be interpreted to mean anything, including just avoiding certain sins and being immersed in water for a ceremonial cleansing from the same sins. Without the death and physical resurrection of Jesus Christ and faith in him according to that, the message is pitifully lacking. That is the essential core of the message of the gospel.

Mark 16:15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Believe is mentioned twice, baptism once, making faith essential and baptism non-essential.

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

Faith isn't mentioned in the above passage but making disciples and keeping his teachings is and among those are believing in him. It is also spoken with the very recent resurrection in mind so discipleship will be according to faith in that resurrection.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

"in the name of Jesus Christ" is essential here and he just spent a long time explaining to them what that means and it involves his death and resurrection and calling upon his name accordingly, in faith.

Acts 8:36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?”
37 Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”
And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”

Verse 36 is used as a slogan but verse 37 gives the proper context. Believe in the resurrected Christ first, then get baptized.

Acts 13:38 Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins; 39 and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses

Paul preached faith in the risen Christ.

Romans 10:6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way,
***
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”[f] 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved

Faith in the risen Christ.

1 Cor 2:2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

Faith in the risen Christ.

1 Cor 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.
18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

That should tell us everything about what is the essential core of the gospel. Let's start with that and not pretend otherwise.

Originally Posted by wheeze

sticking up for Zek here colonel but I think ur nitpicking slightly...... i am sure faith is in the mix...

Have to agree with Wheeze
Colonel since we have read many of Zeke's previous posts we can safely assume he presents the full gospel.

Originally Posted by Cardinal TT

Have to agree with Wheeze
Colonel since we have read many of Zeke's previous posts we can safely assume he presents the full gospel.

Could as well claim in some other thread that the gospel is about confession. Or becoming righteous by works (james 2). To sloganize important topics and discuss by way of political slogan type statements is a really bad way of discussing things even when everyone is able to remember what everyone else really believes and there is no confusion. That is not always the case because sometimes posters will never state clearly what it is that they believe rather they will assume that people "get it" somewhere between the lines and their sloganized approach to topics is just a form of shock treatment. Well people do not always "get it" and some times not to almost any degree so that is a really good way of creating confusion. I know this particular discussion isnt the best example of that since posters will admit that they arent actually baptismal regenerationists but that doesnt mean that it hasnt happened before. Several posters have had the tendency to talk like politicians, they seek to manipulate the discussions and make a greater impact and they come close to being outright liars at times. That is not in line with godliness or with the verse that says to let our speech be yes,yes and no,no and anything beyond that is evil.

Torben Søndergaard uses that technique in one of his videos from a seminar in Ireland. In one video he talks about baptism in water and goes to the length of claiming that salvation is basically found in baptism in water and then they receive the Holy Spirit (as in speaking in tongues). He talks about this for several minutes. He apparently receives some questions in between sessions and in the next video he asks himself what happens if people are already baptized in the Spirit and speak in tongues and they claim that they don't need to be baptized (for salvation, I will assume) and then he says "maybe". At least he admits in that next video that he isn't really a baptismal regenerationist but if one had only watched the previous video or didn't pay attention to that one sentence in the next one, one would easily get the impression that he is and then perhaps wonder what other errors he holds to. He is obviously trying to argue hard for the necessity of being baptized in water on one's own faith as a component in getting right with God and living a consecrated life etc, but it gets way too "political" and potentially confusing. At least that is just one man and it is easier to pay attention to everything he says and over time, it gets harder on a discussion forum with between dozens to hundreds of posters and can be extremely frustrating. Especially when they never bother to come down to the fact of what they believe in which is what Søndergaard did in that next video.

Originally Posted by Ezekiel 33

Brother, if you don't know exactly what I believe about presenting the gospel message after all these years you must have hibernated through most of my posts on said subject.

I did this time. If I hadn't been addressing history here then I would have probably taken a stab at your removing "in the name of Jesus Christ" to make it look as "different" to the typical version as possible and left it at that.

The generic "repent and get baptized" is what John the baptist taught his disciples and as we see in the book of Acts, his disciples still needed to receive the actual gospel concerning the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. It also works within other religions like Hinduism etc.

Real faith includes a repentance from own righteousness and to Jesus' righteousness, acknowledging that he is the risen Christ, the anointed one, the chosen one, the holy one, the one whom God is pleased with. Fundamentally a repentance from sin at the core to Jesus being invited in. A repentance from own rule to God's rule - at least ultimately. Beyond the fundamentals there is a call to repent from and stay away from specific sins, to be sanctified through and through, to serve him from the heart and in deed but it all starts with that fundamental repentance.

Originally Posted by Colonel

Real faith includes a repentance from own righteousness and to Jesus' righteousness, acknowledging that he is the risen Christ, the anointed one, the chosen one, the holy one, the one whom God is pleased with. Fundamentally a repentance from sin at the core to Jesus being invited in. A repentance from own rule to God's rule - at least ultimately. Beyond the fundamentals there is a call to repent from and stay away from specific sins, to be sanctified through and through, to serve him from the heart and in deed but it all starts with that fundamental repentance.

colonel as we say down here in the deep south "you still is making a mountain out of a mole hill"