Thread: Our church's new web page

Originally Posted by fuego

Because maybe you ARE a robot, and you're publicly questioning this just so we won't think you are? It won't work. You're a robot aren't you?

All Calvinists are robots.

(sorry, just couldn't resist)

Originally Posted by Colonel

All Calvinists are robots.

(sorry, just couldn't resist)

Well...I do have to give you a point for that one.

Originally Posted by victoryword

There's more truth to this statement than one may realize.

However, if you believe in exhaustive divine foreknowledge than you are simply "going thru the motions" as well since all of your future actions are set in stone

(I think I just derailed my own thread, Oh well)

So you insist. A good Calvinist will admit that he has no actual free will. A good Wesley/Arminian will never agree with you that his future actions are set in stone just because God possesses foreknowledge.

Love the new site, thrust, and materials. You are a blessing, VW!

Looks GREAT!

Originally Posted by victoryword

There's more truth to this statement than one may realize.

Interesting thing the will, it can be trained, influenced, manipulated etc. I did it here :)

If I teach my kids manners I know they'll be better behaved in public; do they behave better because I know they will or because of who they are?
When I posted here I knew you would respond; did you respond because I knew you would or because of who you are and what you think?

We behave the way I do because of who we are. I behave differently today than I have in the past; I hope you do too. But God is omniscient and knows us better that we do so knows not only what we've done, what we're doing but also what we will do. But that doesn't make us "going thru the motions", we're doing those things because that's who we are.

A coach trains a player to do a certain thing; when the situation arises the coach puts that player on the field and the player does what he's trained to do and ..... "touchdown" (and the crowd chants "robot, robot, robot" ... NOT ... no, the guy's a hero).

Did you ever get your spouse something you knew she'd like, something she'd enjoy? And your kids, ever taught them to do something you knew they'd enjoy doing? The two things have a relationship in that there's knowing but the enjoying is one sided (though you may enjoy seeing them enjoy themselves). Same with God and us, there is that knowledge relationship in that God can say "I knew you'd do that" but at the same time it's us that's doing it, not God, and He's not making us, it's not hard really.

Originally Posted by victoryword

I would agree your analogy since God has omni-intelligence and is indeed omniscient. BUt that is NOT the teaching of Calvinism or Armininianism. Both C and A teach a God "outside of time" who sees the past, present, and future all at the same time.

OK, here's how I see it:

God made me.
God has always known that at this time I'd be typing this on my PC here and now; that's because He's omniscient.
Even though He knew what I'd be doing now God could have made me just a little different e.g. so that I didn't fix the typos in this and the previous line; that's because He's omnipotent.

Given that God made me knowing everything I'd do and choose not to make me differently even though He could have then from His worldview He's determined what I will do even though from my worldview I do what I choose to do. We have to be careful though, God and man are very different and trying to understand God in human terms, specifically sinful human terms with our sinful minds; lots of margins for error.

BTW "God "outside of time" who sees the past, present, and future all at the same time" then how come Jeses doesn't know when He'll return?

Originally Posted by victoryword

... "Fake Coke Can".

If you're going to call people names VW you've got to do it properly. Not sure how it works in the US of 40% of the northern half of America but in OZ you've gotta follow the name trail (fun with women who change names when they marry) from birth certificate to current name; a random from somewhere in the middle isn't good enough. Back to you for completion of the task .