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Thread: God saves men by his goodness not his wrath !

  1. #1

    God saves men by his goodness not his wrath !

    "Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?" (Romans 2:4, NKJV). (2 Corinthians 5:18) Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

    20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God. 21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

    Justin Martyr wrote, "Therefore we must confess that He, who is ever the same, has commanded these and such like the institutions on account of sinful men, and we must declare Him to be benevolent, foreknowing, needing nothing, righteous and good."

    J.I. Packer said, "God's love is an exercise of his goodness toward sinners. As such, it has the nature of grace and mercy. It is an outgoing of God in kindness which not merely is undeserved, but is actually contrary to desert; for the objects of God's love are rational creatures who have broken God's law, whose nature is corrupt in God's sight, and who merit only condemnation and final banishment from his presence."
    False doctrine and practices of those Calvinists are 1) They cannot think independently. They must always regurgitate other Calvinistic teachings they hear or read 2) jealous and envious of those who really believe the Bible and see miracles 3) will poor mouth and cannot trust God for provision 4) Think they only are the true worshipers of God! This is unhinged insanity/arrogance 5) seek personal recognition for their superior doctrines 6)Refuse to act and pray in faith 7) are not satisfied with a relationship with Him, but they seek a superior inside doctrinal road to God that is cultish.

  2. #2
    It's like a Pastor trying to reconcile an adulterous spouse back to their mate.The guilty one must believe the other person has forgiven their sin and will not hold it against them to be reconciled. It's possible if they believe in the other persons goodness and honesty. If they do that there is hope for a restoration. To preach wrath to a repentant person might drive them away from the spouse which is willing to forgive and work on the relationship. Wrath is not the answer or message we preach, It is RECONCILIATION !
    False doctrine and practices of those Calvinists are 1) They cannot think independently. They must always regurgitate other Calvinistic teachings they hear or read 2) jealous and envious of those who really believe the Bible and see miracles 3) will poor mouth and cannot trust God for provision 4) Think they only are the true worshipers of God! This is unhinged insanity/arrogance 5) seek personal recognition for their superior doctrines 6)Refuse to act and pray in faith 7) are not satisfied with a relationship with Him, but they seek a superior inside doctrinal road to God that is cultish.

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  4. #3
    I agree, but the goodness of God is not the whole story. The verse you quoted from Romans 2, let's read it in context. Look at what is on each side of that verse that you didn't quote. You have to take verse 4 in context. I quoted it in the NKJV since that's what you used.

    Romans
    2 Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. 2 But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. 3 And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God?

    4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?

    5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds": 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the [c]Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

    That's a whole lot of wrath and judgment Paul wrote about under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit on each side of that verse. So there is one sentence about goodness and many about wrath and judgment and punishment surrounding it. So verse 4 needs to be preached in the context of preaching wrath, judgment, and punishment.

    The point is, it is the goodness of God toward sinners in light of the fact they have abused Him and disobeyed him, been impenitent toward him, done evil, etc, and that they will come under wrath, judgment, and punishment because of it that causes conviction and leads sinners to repentance.

    1 Timothy 1
    8 But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, 9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is [c]contrary to sound doctrine, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust.

    Again, it's the goodness of God in the context of the other which causes conviction in a sinner. The goodness of God out of context means nothing to an unconvicted careless sinner. You may as well say to them 'twinkle twinkle little star'. It will have the same effect on an unconvicted careless sinner. If you ever go up to someone and say 'God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life' and they fall on their knees and repent, you can be sure you weren't the first person they've ever heard preach the Word to them. But saying that was what they needed in their progression to repentance.

    Anyway, I don't disagree with you per se, Paul does say that, but it's out of context to quote that alone. But it's just that skillful use of both sides of that coin bring the results, depending on where that person is on the path to salvation when you talk to them. This is a lot of our preaching inoculates sinners against the Word and causing false conversions rather than creating true repentance. I know many will disagree, but I'm just showing quoting what it actually says.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fuego View Post
    I agree, but the goodness of God is not the whole story. The verse you quoted from Romans 2, let's read it in context. Look at what is on each side of that verse that you didn't quote. You have to take verse 4 in context. I quoted it in the NKJV since that's what you used.

    Romans
    2 Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. 2 But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. 3 And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God?

    4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?

    5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds": 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the [c]Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

    That's a whole lot of wrath and judgment Paul wrote about under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit on each side of that verse. So there is one sentence about goodness and many about wrath and judgment and punishment surrounding it. So verse 4 needs to be preached in the context of preaching wrath, judgment, and punishment.

    The point is, it is the goodness of God toward sinners in light of the fact they have abused Him and disobeyed him, been impenitent toward him, done evil, etc, and that they will come under wrath, judgment, and punishment because of it that causes conviction and leads sinners to repentance.

    1 Timothy 1
    8 But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, 9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is [c]contrary to sound doctrine, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust.

    Again, it's the goodness of God in the context of the other which causes conviction in a sinner. The goodness of God out of context means nothing to an unconvicted careless sinner. You may as well say to them 'twinkle twinkle little star'. It will have the same effect on an unconvicted careless sinner. If you ever go up to someone and say 'God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life' and they fall on their knees and repent, you can be sure you weren't the first person they've ever heard preach the Word to them. But saying that was what they needed in their progression to repentance.

    Anyway, I don't disagree with you per se, Paul does say that, but it's out of context to quote that alone. But it's just that skillful use of both sides of that coin bring the results, depending on where that person is on the path to salvation when you talk to them. This is a lot of our preaching inoculates sinners against the Word and causing false conversions rather than creating true repentance. I know many will disagree, but I'm just showing quoting what it actually says.
    Amen! The rule of thumb taught by The Way of the Master is grace to the humble; law to the proud.

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