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Thread: Incomplete genealogies in the Old Testament

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    We have every reason to believe that their records of the formation of certain lakes are precise because they accurately reflect how science says that they were formed. For instance Lake Euramoo was formed 23,000 years ago, according to science.
    Can they (and science) provide records (preferably written) that cover that period of time, with multiple dates of other events which can be verified to provide a reliable timeline back to that date.

    See Wiki says Lake Euramoo was formed "about 23,000 years ago by two massive explosions from groundwater superheating" but its Facebook page says it was "formed about 10,000 years ago by two massive explosions from groundwater superheating". One figure is less than half the other Colonel.

    Another site (ref) says that Aboriginal history says "Two men broke a taboo and angered the rainbow serpent, a major spirit of the area. The earth roared like thunder and the winds blew like a cyclone. The ground began to twist and crack and there were red clouds in the sky that had never been seen before. People ran from side to side but were swallowed by a crack which opened in the earth". This same site also says "it is though to be a little older than ten thousand years old".

    "thought to be" isn't exactly a common scientific term. And personally, I don't see that as a precise description of how lakes form.

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    There are numbers that you can add up, the question is if one should assume that it's all literal and exact. If we compare Samuel/Kings to Chronicles there are lots of discrepancies in terms of the numbers listed.

    1 Chron 21:5 Then Joab gave the sum of the number of the people to David. All Israel had one million one hundred thousand men who drew the sword, and Judah had four hundred and seventy thousand men who drew the sword.
    6 But he did not count Levi and Benjamin among them, for the king's word was abominable to Joab.

    2 Sam 24:9 Then Joab gave the sum of the number of the people to the king. And there were in Israel eight hundred thousand valiant men who drew the sword, and the men of Judah were five hundred thousand men.
    We know from Covid-19 that government stats aren't an exact science. But 1,100,000 not 1,099,999 and 800,000 not 800,001? Of course the numbers are rounded. Is there an explanation? One suggestion is that the 1Chron figure includes all the available men of a military age, whether battle seasoned or not, but 2Sam could be 800,000 battle seasoned with the additional 300,000 being of age but had never fought, or the 288,000 in the standing army (1 Chron 27:1-5) rounded off to 300,000.

    So there are possible explanations.

    Now the Jews accepted both books as part of their Sacred Books, and the Church accepted both into the Bible. And the Church knew that to be Scripture it must follow the rule that "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness". They still got in, even with their differences.

    There are two directions we can take I believe:
    1. We acknowledge that 1 Chron and 2 Sam are inspired by God, and although there may seem to be differences on the surface, there's a valid reason for the differences, even if we don't know what that reason is. Or

    2. We go towards saying it's "wrong". It's "inexact". It's "not correct". So what do we do? Has God inspired a lie? Should we ignore 1 Chron, 2 Chron, 1 Sam and 2 Sam? Or do we ignore only Chron or Sam, not both? Which one? And what about everything in the Bible that we have only one account of? Can we believe any of them? How are we going to know what's right?

    There are apparently differences in the description of the same event in the Gospels Colonel (ref). Are we not going to trust them too? Maybe the crucifixion never happened? Maybe we're all still destined for hell?

  2. #12
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    Can they (and science) provide records (preferably written) that cover that period of time, with multiple dates of other events which can be verified to provide a reliable timeline back to that date.

    See Wiki says Lake Euramoo was formed "about 23,000 years ago by two massive explosions from groundwater superheating" but its Facebook page says it was "formed about 10,000 years ago by two massive explosions from groundwater superheating". One figure is less than half the other Colonel.
    You mean that someone actually put up an entry for "Lake Euramoo" on Facebook and added some text ?

    A 23,000-yr Pollen Record from Lake Euramoo, Wet Tropics of NE Queensland, Australia | Quaternary Research | Cambridge Core

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    You mean that someone actually put up an entry for "Lake Euramoo" on Facebook and added some text ?
    Yep, and someone else created a web site and some of the text matched.

    You mean some people dug up some mud and made up stuff about it? (Sorry, my bad, but I couldn't resist).

    But seriously, where did they get the figures 23,000, 16,800, 8600, 5000 and 70 from?

  4. #14
    Senior Member Romans828's Avatar
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    But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings; for they are unprofitable and vain - Titus 3:9

    But reject foolish and ignorant speculation, for you know that it breeds quarreling - 2 Timothy 2:23

    Just sayin'

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  6. #15
    I can see the genealogy gaps pointing to an old earth. I am old earth myself however it isn't a hill I would die on!

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  8. #16
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by curly sue View Post
    I can see the genealogy gaps pointing to an old earth. I am old earth myself however it isn't a hill I would die on!
    The gap between the creation of the Earth and the creation of man is a different topic.

  9. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    The gap between the creation of the Earth and the creation of man is a different topic.
    Oh, my bad! Since there were posts speaking of the age of lakes and timelines of oral histories and creation stories, I thought my comment might fit in. What was I thinking?

  10. #18
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by curly sue View Post
    Oh, my bad! Since there were posts speaking of the age of lakes and timelines of oral histories and creation stories, I thought my comment might fit in. What was I thinking?
    It fits in at all, just don't change the topic entirely. The original topic was what to do with gaps and discrepancies in biblical genealogies and implicitly the preservation of oral history over millenia.

  11. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    It fits in at all, just don't change the topic entirely. The original topic was what to do with gaps and discrepancies in biblical genealogies and implicitly the preservation of oral history over millenia.
    Well Abram was alive in the time of Shem who was alive in the time of Lamech who was alive in the time of Adam.

    You said Colonel
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    We do know that Australian aboriginees have been able to keep precise oral records of geological events that happened several tens of thousands of years ago
    so you obviously believe that oral history can be preserved over millennia. However the rest of the world had invented writing way back so there were multi options with Scripture. Also, as you know, the Bible is inspired by God (the particular word is only used the once in Scripture, and that to describe itself).

    Any gaps in Biblical geologies are there because that's exactly what God wanted written there.

    God speaks differently to us. Hebrews says, "And, so to speak, through Abraham even Levi, who received tithes, paid tithes,for he was still in the loins of his father when Melchizedek met him". Abraham was Levi's great grandfather, so Levi certainly wasn't in his loins medically.

    So "what to do with gaps and discrepancies in biblical genealogies and implicitly the preservation of oral history over millenia"? Perhaps

    1. Don't over worry about it;
    2. Recognise that God wrote the Bible;
    3. Recognise that the oral history of pagans will not be accurate;
    4. Give glory to God, thanking Him for His word which, unlike anything produced by man, is "profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness".

  12. #20
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    Any gaps in Biblical geologies are there because that's exactly what God wanted written there
    That would be possible if there had been one authorative original manuscript for the Bible. There isn't and they differ on lots of details. Was Goliath 4.5 cubits tall, 5.5 cubits tall or 6.5 cubits tall ? That depends on which original manucript we ask. The Jewish scholar Josephus and the Septuagint translation (from Hebrew into Greek), both from about 2000 years ago, both say 4.5 cubits. Modern translations including the KJV typically say 6.5 cubits, probably based on the majority of the original manuscripts.

    1 Samuel 17:4 - Bible Gateway

    Out of 50+ translations at the above link, all except two use 6.5 cubits. The ISV and the NET translation use 4.5 cubits.

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