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Thread: Is John 3:16 the Gospel? (David Pawson died too you know!)

  1. #1

    Is John 3:16 the Gospel? (David Pawson died too you know!)

    Prominent United Kingdom-based Bible teacher, author and public speaker David Pawson died at 9am yesterday (that would be 21/May) morning at the age of 90, Gateway News learned this morning. Considered one of the finest Bible expositors of the world, Pawson travelled widely to teach,
    (emphasis mine)

    How many knew? But it's not who says goodbye, it's who says hello on the other side.

    Anyway after hearing of his death I bought and read his book "Is John 3:16 the Gospel?" Less than $5 for the Kindle version (which you can read on a smartphone, tablet or PC) and less than 100 pages long so it only takes an hour or so to read.

    Here are some quotes (and sorta quotes) from the book:

    o- There are only 35 bible verses that explicitly refer to the love of God, that is one verse in a thousand

    o- Every mention of the love of God is directed to those who have already been redeemed from slavery, either in Egypt under Pharaoh or sin under satan

    o- Neither Jesus nor any of the Apostles ever preached about the love of God in public

    o- We should be preaching his righteousness. His righteousness is what the Bible majors on. That is what the Apostles majored on when they preached

    o- Two of the four "Gospels" were written for believers, two for unbelievers. And it is very important that we use the four Gospels in the way they were intended to be used.

    o- John 3:16 is addressed to believers, and if you go on to read the verses after 3:16, you find that he is discussing with believers the result of Christ coming and being 'given'. It is not a verse about God loving everybody. It is a verse about God providing a way out.

    o- David's paraphrase of John 3:16 "Indeed, in just the same way (see what Jesus said to Nicodemus in the previous verses ...ffo), God the Father acted in love on another occasion, this time for the whole rebellious human race, by sacrificing his only natural son so that all who go on trusting and obeying him might never be ruined beyond recovery, but go on having everlasting and abundant life."

    Worth a read.

    Is John 3:16 the Gospel? (David Pawson died too you know!)-capture-jpg
    Last edited by FunFromOz; 05-23-2020 at 06:49 AM. Reason: added image

  2. #2
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    The above is what happens when the WCF is made authorative for all interpretations of the Bible.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    The above is what happens when the WCF is made authorative for all interpretations of the Bible.
    Colonel

    Taking a Bible verse and looking at the words and their order and tenses as inspired by the Holy Spirit and relating that back to what was in the private conversation Jesus had with Nicodemus (i.e. looking at the verse in context); has what to do with the WCF?

    Looking at how many times certain things are mentioned in the Bible and to whom; has what to do with the WCF?

    Looking at what Jesus and the Apostles did and did not do; has what to do with the WCF?

    Identifying who the Gospels (our word not theirs) were written to; has what to do with the WCF?

    And a statement I did not quote "It is those who go on believing, who go on having life. Those who do not go on believing will not go on having life. (emphasis in the original); has what to do with the WCF? Disagrees with it does it not?

    Here's another one I missed first time: The message of John 3:16 (read as carefully as possibly) is that eternal life can be lost, and you can cease to be having eternal life by ceasing to believe in him who died for us; this disagrees with the WCF also.
    Last edited by FunFromOz; 05-24-2020 at 01:25 AM. Reason: added last sentance.

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    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
    15 that the elect will believe in Him and not perish but have eternal life.
    16 For God so loved the elect that He gave His only begotten Son, that the elect will believe in Him and not perish but have everlasting life.
    17 For God did not send His Son into the world of the elect to condemn the world of the elect, but that the world of the elect through Him will be saved.

    There are problems with the above WCF-driven interpretation of John 3:14-17. They pile up when we get to chapters 14-17 :

    John 15:19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

    All of a sudden "the world" has to mean the diametrical opposite of in John 3. The "world of the non-elect" ?

    John 16:8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

    Now we're back to "the world of the elect" again since those are the only ones convicted of sin, according to the WCF. But this is the same speech as John 15:9 and there is no way that the speaker has changed the meaning of the same term until it suddenly means the diametrical opposite of what it meant one minute earlier. If we look at the occurrences of the term "world" with Calvinistic glasses then the meaning has to go back and forth from elect to non-elect throughout the gospel of John.

    The WCF produces total nonsense with John 13-17. But interpreting "the world" as simply "all human beings the way they are per default" and "I chose you out of the world" as people letting themselves be born again and receive a new nature that now makes them different to this world, makes perfect sense throughout the gospel of John.

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    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    o- There are only 35 bible verses that explicitly refer to the love of God, that is one verse in a thousand

    o- Every mention of the love of God is directed to those who have already been redeemed from slavery, either in Egypt under Pharaoh or sin under satan
    Only 35 mentions of love...that is plenty to verify doctrine and declare God's character of love

    In point 2 he gets it wrong because the below verse is directed to all mankind who are unredeemed
    John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son...

    world - Greek kosmos
    Thayer Definition:
    5) the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family
    6) the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ

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    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    Only 35 mentions of love...that is plenty to verify doctrine and declare God's character of love

    In point 2 he gets it wrong because the below verse is directed to all mankind who are unredeemed
    John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son...

    world - Greek kosmos
    Thayer Definition:
    5) the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family
    6) the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ
    It's that mass of sinful, ungodly, non-elect people that Jesus came to save, giving them new birth so that they would ultimately become sinless, godly, elect people recreated in His image since Jesus is God's Elect, the one God was pleased with. Just like here :

    Romans 9:25 As He says also in Hosea:
    "I will call them My people, who were not My people,
    And her beloved, who was not beloved."
    26 "And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,
    'You are not My people,'
    There they shall be called sons of the living God.

    Here he takes those who were not his people, who were not beloved - the non-elect - and he recreates them into those who now are his people, who are his beloved, who are now elect. This transformation from being non-elect to becoming elect is called "being born again". It's what Jesus came here for.

  9. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    ... There are problems with the above WCF-driven interpretation of John 3:14-17.
    ...
    The WCF produces total nonsense with John 13-17.
    Colonel, the WCF has got nothing to do with it ....

  10. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    ... he gets it wrong because the below verse is directed to all mankind who are unredeemed
    John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son...
    If you'd skip a cup of coffee and buy the book you would find the following on page 30:

    So it is not just that God loves this beautiful world and God loves this human world - it is God loving this rebellious, hating world, and doing something about it.

    But one slight correction (I could mention more), the above is who the sentence is about. John is writing to, the book is directed towards mature Christians.

    Just $5 TT. A large coffee. If you read the book you might understand what he's saying more clearly.

  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    Only 35 mentions of love...that is plenty to verify doctrine and declare God's character of love
    But the key thing TT is that "Every mention of the love of God is directed to those who have already been redeemed from slavery, either in Egypt under Pharaoh or sin under satan". John 3:16 is a statement of what happened in the past; He loved (past tense) and so He gave (past tense).

    I didn't look at the context but the word vengeance occurs more often (47) as does hate (163) and wrath (198) and destroy (434). In fact the phrase "there is no God" occurs a dozen times.

  12. #10
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    But the key thing TT is that "Every mention of the love of God is directed to those who have already been redeemed from slavery, either in Egypt under Pharaoh or sin under satan". John 3:16 is a statement of what happened in the past; He loved (past tense) and so He gave (past tense).

    I didn't look at the context but the word vengeance occurs more often (47) as does hate (163) and wrath (198) and destroy (434). In fact the phrase "there is no God" occurs a dozen times.
    Now you changed the parameters from "explicitly in the context of God" to "in general". There are 504 mentions of love in the NKJV.

    BibleGateway - Keyword Search: love

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