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Thread: Is John 3:16 the Gospel? (David Pawson died too you know!)

  1. #61
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    You don't believe John 3:16?

    Don't you believe that it's limited to those that believe? "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." John 3:36.
    You're talking about who lets themselves be saved, not about who Jesus atoned for. If you want to equate the two then prove it.

    Here's a verse that deals directly with the scope of the atonement :

    1 John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

    holos
    Definition
    all, whole, completely
    King James Word Usage - Total: 112
    all 65, whole 43, every whit 2, altogether 1, throughout + (1223)&version=kjv 1

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  3. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    not about who Jesus atoned for.
    How do you understand that Colonel? If Jesus atoned for everyone than why are people being punished for a debt that's already been paid?

  4. #63
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    How do you understand that Colonel? If Jesus atoned for everyone than why are people being punished for a debt that's already been paid?
    A covenant requires that both parties enter into it for it to take effect. God has already accepted Jesus' sacrifice as payment for the sins of the whole world, not all men have accepted Jesus' sacrifice as payment for their individual sins.

    When Jesus presented his blood before God in heaven on the day of his resurrection he successfully mediated the new covenant towards God. He is still mediating the new covenant towards individual men through the preaching of the gospel.

    1 Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
    4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
    5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
    6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,
    7 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle

  5. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    God has already accepted Jesus' sacrifice as payment for the sins of the whole world,
    So the whole penalty for all sin has been paid, yes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    not all men have accepted Jesus' sacrifice as payment for their individual sins.
    So they pay the penalty themselves, a second time because it's already been paid by Jesus, throughout eternity?

    This seems double dipping.

    Hebrews 9 says: Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.

    Doesn't that suggest a limitation?

  6. #65
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    So the whole penalty for all sin has been paid, yes?
    The transaction doesn't take place until both parties have accepted the submitted sum as payment.

    So they pay the penalty themselves, a second time because it's already been paid by Jesus, throughout eternity?
    If someone puts up a million dollars to pay down my million dollar debt and I refuse to accept his million dollars as payment then no transaction is made and I'm left with having to put up the money myself.

    This seems double dipping.
    That's what the Christ-rejecting sinner makes it, in that case.

    Hebrews 9 says: Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.

    Doesn't that suggest a limitation?
    Only in the sense that the gospel must be preached for someone to accept it which means that the call doesn't go out to those who do not actually hear the message. Which per default is whosoever. The Bible even states that God wants all men to be saved and lists conditions (1 Tim 2:1-2) that promote an environment where more people may hear that call and respond.

  7. #66
    Super Moderator Quest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    But the key thing TT is that "Every mention of the love of God is directed to those who have already been redeemed from slavery, either in Egypt under Pharaoh or sin under satan". John 3:16 is a statement of what happened in the past; He loved (past tense) and so He gave (past tense).

    I didn't look at the context but the word vengeance occurs more often (47) as does hate (163) and wrath (198) and destroy (434). In fact the phrase "there is no God" occurs a dozen times.
    While I was yet in sin Christ died for me....For God so loved....it is hard to make a distinction there...So is he saying God does not love the sinner? Not sure I understand. Sounds like he is making the context generic or obscure not personal? For God so loved me, a sinner still in my sin, He gave His son....

  8. #67
    Super Moderator Quest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    The transaction doesn't take place until both parties have accepted the submitted sum as payment.



    If someone puts up a million dollars to pay down my million dollar debt and I refuse to accept his million dollars as payment then no transaction is made and I'm left with having to put up the money myself.



    That's what the Christ-rejecting sinner makes it, in that case.



    Only in the sense that the gospel must be preached for someone to accept it which means that the call doesn't go out to those who do not actually hear the message. Which per default is whosoever. The Bible even states that God wants all men to be saved and lists conditions (1 Tim 2:1-2) that promote an environment where more people may hear that call and respond.
    I see a possible third option....like your double dipping statement...So using that analogy of a debt...Jesus paid the debt...or Jesus set up a trust fund to cover all debts and we make the withdrawal when we accept the gift? The debt is owed to God...and the debt remains as long as we choose to remain in our sinful state. So it has been PAID but Jesus is the intercessor that must be accepted to get back in good standing with the Father. He is the Trust fund...?

  9. #68
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quest View Post
    I see a possible third option....like your double dipping statement...So using that analogy of a debt...Jesus paid the debt...or Jesus set up a trust fund to cover all debts and we make the withdrawal when we accept the gift? The debt is owed to God...and the debt remains as long as we choose to remain in our sinful state. So it has been PAID but Jesus is the intercessor that must be accepted to get back in good standing with the Father. He is the Trust fund...?
    My explanation is in line with the definition of a covenant from that time period.

  10. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    If someone puts up a million dollars to pay down my million dollar debt and I refuse to accept his million dollars as payment then no transaction is made and I'm left with having to put up the money myself.
    True. And if you don't accept he gets it back.

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    The transaction doesn't take place until both parties have accepted the submitted sum as payment.
    In the case of Jesus the payment was made (past tense) to God. Jesus went to the Cross, suffered and died, had our sin placed on Him, suffered the wrath of God. Jesus doesn't get to unsuffer if we refuse to accept His payment.

    They are not equivalent.

  11. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Quest View Post
    While I was yet in sin Christ died for me....For God so loved....it is hard to make a distinction there...So is he saying God does not love the sinner? Not sure I understand. Sounds like he is making the context generic or obscure not personal? For God so loved me, a sinner still in my sin, He gave His son....
    Yes, the Bible says things like that such as in Romans 5 "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us".

    But who is that being said to Quest. You by inference, but have a quick look up of Rom 1:6-7 to see who Paul is talking to.

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