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Thread: Is John 3:16 the Gospel? (David Pawson died too you know!)

  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    Did the apostle John tell you he wrote his gospel for mature Christians ....did he tell Calvinists
    ...
    Calvinism twists the pure love of God into a humanistic love based on man made doctrine


    A 10 min video just for you TT. In it David Pawson speaks of the idea of "once saved, always saved" and says there are 80 Scriptures saying that this is not true. To the question "Can you lose your salvation?" his answer is "Yes!".

    P.S. If I heard him right he's a direct descendant of John Wesley.

    P.P.S. According to Wiki (grain of salt sometimes) he was a Methodist minister till he had problems with infant baptism. He then pastored a Baptist church. Later he "established a reputation among both evangelicals and charismatics as a Bible teacher".

    With respect to salvation "He proposed four principal steps: repentance towards God; believing in Jesus, baptism in water and receiving the Holy Spirit." Emphasis mine.
    Last edited by FunFromOz; 05-25-2020 at 08:10 PM. Reason: added '10 min' and the P.S. and stuff from Wiki

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  3. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    That's standard Wesley-Arminianism, the need for prevenient grace. The main difference is that it isn't irresistible.
    Thanks, that brings back memories. Here's another major difference that I see, thing getting more and more complicated. (and I'm basing this on the second website that came up in a google on "prevenient grace").

    Reformed theology says that God has individually chosen each and every person that He will save. He draws them to Himself and they believe. Simple.

    On the site I read it talks of three positions on the doctrine of prevenient grace, and what happens is the scope of grace widens and things get more complicated.


    • "The first of the two prominent positions on the doctrine of prevenient grace in classical Arminianism is that until the Gospel, the instrument by which God draws sinners to Himself, is presented to a sinner, the sinner is in complete bondage to sin. The Holy Spirit works with the presentation of the Gospel through teaching (John 6:45) and convicting (John 16:8) the sinner, enabling the sinner to respond in the exercising of saving faith in Christ"


    That's like the reformed position except that the person has the final choice.


    • In "The second position ... there is, essentially, a lesser and greater drawing via prevenient grace, which comes through the proclamation of the Gospel and the internal calling of God, sometimes referred to as the "full intensity" of prevenient grace. That is, God is drawing all men in a lesser sense and then drawing those who have the Gospel presented to them in another, greater sense. ... similar to the other position in classical Arminianism, people are not completely freed from their bondage of sin until the Gospel is presented to them and God calls them internally through its presentation."


    So here the scope is widening and now God's drawing "all men". Not fully effectively though as people need to hear Gospel to believe.


    • The last position on the doctrine of prevenient grace is that of the Wesleyans (also known as Wesleyan-Arminians). In this position, because of the first coming and atoning work of Christ, God has dispensed a universal prevenient grace that fully negates the depravity of man.


    In this last position fully effective grace is offered to all men. We possibly don't need the Gospel any more.


    As I said at the start, as you go through views of prevenient grace the scope gets wider complicating things to the point of asking is the Gospel necessary?

    And you would have probably noticed that the result of the scope widening is that it gives more and more people the "opportunity" to be saved, hence moving further away from idea that God has of His own volition chosen to show mercy to only some.
    Last edited by FunFromOz; 05-25-2020 at 10:01 PM. Reason: added last line

  4. #43
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    Thanks, that brings back memories. Here's another major difference that I see, thing getting more and more complicated. (and I'm basing this on the second website that came up in a google on "prevenient grace").

    Reformed theology says that God has individually chosen each and every person that He will save. He draws them to Himself and they believe. Simple.

    On the site I read it talks of three positions on the doctrine of prevenient grace, and what happens is the scope of grace widens and things get more complicated.


    • "The first of the two prominent positions on the doctrine of prevenient grace in classical Arminianism is that until the Gospel, the instrument by which God draws sinners to Himself, is presented to a sinner, the sinner is in complete bondage to sin. The Holy Spirit works with the presentation of the Gospel through teaching (John 6:45) and convicting (John 16:8) the sinner, enabling the sinner to respond in the exercising of saving faith in Christ"


    That's like the reformed position except that the person has the final choice.


    • In "The second position ... there is, essentially, a lesser and greater drawing via prevenient grace, which comes through the proclamation of the Gospel and the internal calling of God, sometimes referred to as the "full intensity" of prevenient grace. That is, God is drawing all men in a lesser sense and then drawing those who have the Gospel presented to them in another, greater sense. ... similar to the other position in classical Arminianism, people are not completely freed from their bondage of sin until the Gospel is presented to them and God calls them internally through its presentation."


    So here the scope is widening and now God's drawing "all men". Not fully effectively though as people need to hear Gospel to believe.


    • The last position on the doctrine of prevenient grace is that of the Wesleyans (also known as Wesleyan-Arminians). In this position, because of the first coming and atoning work of Christ, God has dispensed a universal prevenient grace that fully negates the depravity of man.


    In this last position fully effective grace is offered to all men. We possibly don't need the Gospel any more.


    As I said at the start, as you go through views of prevenient grace the scope gets wider complicating things to the point of asking is the Gospel necessary?

    And you would have probably noticed that the result of the scope widening is that it gives more and more people the "opportunity" to be saved, hence moving further away from idea that God has of His own volition chosen to show mercy to only some.
    #3 doesn't mean what you said. The drawing of all men is a potentiality just like the atonement for all men is a potentiality. If the gospel had been presented to all men then all men would be drawn through it. #2 speculates that all men are drawn to some degree, even without the gospel.

  5. #44
    Senior Member Ezekiel 33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    (emphasis mine)

    "Is John 3:16 the Gospel?"
    Here are some quotes (and sorta quotes) from the book:



    o- Every mention of the love of God is directed to those who have already been redeemed from slavery, either in Egypt under Pharaoh or sin under satan


    Attachment 6789
    El Wrong-o, Ozzi-o. But God shows His love in this; that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.

    That is right, while we were yet at enmity with God (His enemies) Jesus died for us.


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  7. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezekiel 33 View Post
    El Wrong-o, Ozzi-o. But God shows His love in this; that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.

    That is right, while we were yet at enmity with God (His enemies) Jesus died for us.

    Same as Romans 9:25-26

  8. #46
    Administrator fuego's Avatar
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    If I knew who David Pawson was some of this might make more sense (having not watche the video).

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  10. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by fuego View Post
    If I knew who David Pawson was some of this might make more sense (having not watche the video).


    (I was thinking the same thing)

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  12. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Ezekiel 33 View Post
    El Wrong-o, Ozzi-o. But God shows His love in this; that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.

    That is right, while we were yet at enmity with God (His enemies) Jesus died for us.

    Not sure where David got his measures from, but that was written to people who were saved wasn't it?

  13. #49
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    Not sure where David got his measures from, but that was written to people who were saved wasn't it?
    1 Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
    4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

    It doesn't use the term love and it doesn't need to either since God is love and his love can be seen from his actions, his intentions and his desires for us.

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  15. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    1 Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
    4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

    It doesn't use the term love and it doesn't need to either since God is love and his love can be seen from his actions, his intentions and his desires for us.
    Yep His love can be seen as he rebukes, corrects, chastises and disciplines those He loves.

    btw, which of the many contextual understands of "all" (Hebrew pas) is that one?

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