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Thread: Is John 3:16 the Gospel? (David Pawson died too you know!)

  1. #121
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    And He sometimes makes it look to us like He does doesn't He.

    Knowing you're securely in the hands of a Holy, Righteous, Just, and Loving God who is working all things for the good of those He loves and ultimately His own glory is very comforting.
    What things look like or sound like doesn't really matter. The Bible tells us to preach the truth rather than the fluff. If you think an Arminian-sounding gospel and dynamic in terms of how people interact with God is just what things look or feel like then you should simply preach the truth instead, the truth that you actually believe in. I've preached hell to hardcore atheists and others and seen a few people take up the faith after conversations that included that. So there is no point in placing "mushy love" on the Arminian side and "fear of God" on the Calvinist side.

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  3. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    The Bible tells us to preach the truth rather than the fluff.
    Precisely.
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    So there is no point in placing "mushy love" on the Arminian side and "fear of God" on the Calvinist side.
    So true as the Gospel contains both God's wrath as a result of our sin and God's love in having Jesus take the punishment for it.
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  4. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    Precisely.
    So true as the Gospel contains both God's wrath as a result of our sin and God's love in having Jesus take the punishment for it.
    I'm glad I'm in the position to preach what I actually believe is going on instead of a fluffy version to the uninitiated and then "the real truth" later. That would have made me feel like such a hypocrite, if I had to do that.

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  6. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    non-reformed theology says that people have to choose to accept Jesus. A baby can't do that TT. This means that non-reformed people have to come up with a different way of getting babies to heaven. They do this "to support their doctrine".

    reformed theology teaches that God chooses who goes to heaven. If He chooses a child then, as with an adult, He has shown that person mercy. If not he has shown that person justice. The same applies for everyone.

    Na,

    Psalms says "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me" and "The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies". The Apostle Paul said "just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned".

    The idea that babies are somehow innocent is not Biblical. At least the Catholics only apply it to Mary.
    Babies are born with the fallen sin nature but they aren't sinners until they are old enough to sin. Paul said that if it wasn't for the law he wouldn't have known sin. A baby will grow into a child, who will eventually willfully sin. You don't have to teach them to steal a cookie out of the cookie jar or to lie about it when they do. It comes natural because of their fallen nature.

    However, they are not born guilty of sin. God doesn't judge folks for sins they have never committed.

  7. #125
    Senior Member Ezekiel 33's Avatar
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    Let me help you out Oz.

    Before the exodus the Hebrews were told to slaughter a lamb and mark the door posts with it's blood. When the angel of death saw the blood he would pass over that house and they would be saved from the wrath of God.

    That is a picture of our salvation. Jesus is the Lamb, and WHOSOEVER applies the blood shall be saved. God did not allow His only begotten Son to be murdered in order to save only the people chosen previously by God. The Lamb was slaughtered so that WHOSOEVER applies the blood of Jesus will be saved from the wrath of God.

    What do you think would have happened to a Hebrew household that didn't apply the blood on the door posts?

  8. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Ezekiel 33 View Post
    Let me help you out Oz.

    Before the exodus the Hebrews were told to slaughter a lamb and mark the door posts with it's blood. When the angel of death saw the blood he would pass over that house and they would be saved from the wrath of God.

    That is a picture of our salvation. Jesus is the Lamb, and WHOSOEVER applies the blood shall be saved. God did not allow His only begotten Son to be murdered in order to save only the people chosen previously by God. The Lamb was slaughtered so that WHOSOEVER applies the blood of Jesus will be saved from the wrath of God.

    What do you think would have happened to a Hebrew household that didn't apply the blood on the door posts?
    Sorry, but this is a little long.

    First a word on private property: I recently took a coat to town. It was important to its owner (or his family) as it is the last coat he'd ever wear. It was to be put on him before he was lain in his coffin. Meanwhile I wear the same coat but I only wear it because I'm paid to; and I've been paid to wear it as I've climbed onto a bed to help put a person into a body bag. Same coat, but of completely different values to each owner. It is ours, and we can do with it as we see fit.

    I digressed. Now some background stuff: All Scripture is related. Maybe more than Six degrees of separation - Wikipedia, but related in one way or another. Getting the relationships right is the trick part and there are better at it than I, but here's my take on it Ezekiel 33.

    I'll go back as far as Gen 15:13-14 where we find God speaking to Abraham:

    Then the Lord said to him, "Know for certain that for four hundred years your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own and that they will be enslaved and mistreated there. (This spoke of their time in Egypt) But I will punish the nation they serve as slaves, (i.e. Egypt, and God is declaring this 400 years in advance) and afterward they will come out with great possessions. (Which, as we know, they did)

    Now we skip to Exodus 3:7-8 Israel is enslaved and God is speaking to Moses who He has trained for 80 years. Times up, and it is time for God to bring Israel "home", to the land promised to Abraham. The Lord said, "I have indeed seen the misery of my people in Egypt. I have heard them crying out because of their slave drivers, and I am concerned about their suffering. So I have come down to rescue them from the hand of the Egyptians and to bring them up out of that land into a good and spacious land, a land flowing with milk and honey—the home of the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites.

    We are given a preview of what will happen. Ex 3:19-20 But I know that the king of Egypt will not let you go unless a mighty hand compels him. So I will stretch out my hand and strike the Egyptians with all the wonders that I will perform among them. After that, he will let you go (God had told Abraham that he would punish those who mistreated Israel and now He's going to do it.)

    Ex 4:21-23 The Lord said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go. (We have here one of those Scriptures people like to argue over, but whatever way you look at it, God says that He's going to do something to Pharaoh and as a result he will not let Israel go. God said in Ex 3:20 that he would strike them, and strike them He will.)

    This reflects back on John 12:37-40 where we read: But though He had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him. This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: "Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?" For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, "He has blinded their eyes and He hardened their heart, so that they would not see with their eyes and perceive with their heart, and be converted and I heal them." Mark says something similar: Mark 4:10-12 As soon as He was alone, His followers, along with the twelve, began asking Him about the parables. And He was saying to them, "To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables, so that while seeing, they may see and not perceive, and while hearing, they may hear and not understand, otherwise they might return and be forgiven." (Just as with Pharaoh, God made it impossible for him to let Israel go until God's punishment on Egypt for their treatment of Israel was sufficient, here to in John and Mark is a deliberate preventing of people hearing so that they will not believe, so that they can be punished.)

    Ex 4:22-23 Then say to Pharaoh, 'This is what the Lord says: Israel is my firstborn son, and I told you, "Let my son go, so he may worship me." But you refused to let him go; so I will kill your firstborn son.'" (God says straight out to Pharaoh "I'm going to kill your son". This is 3 chapters before we have the first plague. God has already determined what He is doing to do. He will punish Egypt as He promised Abraham He would.) (Another aside, God is telling Moses to go up to the ruler of a nation and tell him what to do, yet Moses in his own words has "never been eloquent, neither recently nor in time past, nor since You have spoken to Your servant; for I am slow of speech and slow of tongue." (Ex 4:1). God used people in areas of their weakness so that only He could get the glory.)

    Anyway Exodus 12: Ex 12:3-4 each man is to take a lamb for his family, one for each household. If any household is too small for a whole lamb, they must share one with their nearest neighbor, having taken into account the number of people there are (each specific lamb sacrificed applied to the family (or group), just to them. The blood put on the lintel covered those who the lamb was sacrificed for.)

    Ex 12:6-7 all the members of the community of Israel must slaughter them at twilight. Then they are to take some of the blood and put it on the sides and tops of the doorframes of the houses where they eat the lambs. (Although the individual sacrifices are for the family units, it is something for all Israel though. All Israel is to take part. But no one else. Previously God has said to Moses (Ex 4:22-23)) Then say to Pharaoh, 'This is what the Lord says: Israel is my firstborn son, 23 and I told you, "Let my son go, so he may worship me." But you refused to let him go; so I will kill your firstborn son.'" (Israel is God's son; Israel belongs to God; Egypt does not. God is protecting those who are His and punishing those who are not. Egypt doesn't get a look-in).

    Ex 12:12-13 On that same night I will pass through Egypt and strike down every firstborn of both people and animals, and I will bring judgment on all the gods of Egypt. I am the Lord. (God says He will pass through and strike down Egypt) The blood will be a sign for you on the houses where you are, and when I see the blood, I will pass over you. No destructive plague will touch you when I strike Egypt.

    Ex 12:29-30 At midnight the Lord struck down all the firstborn in Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn of the prisoner, who was in the dungeon, and the firstborn of all the livestock as well. (He said he would do, God brings His wrath on Egypt and punishes them for enslaving Israel all those years.) Pharaoh and all his officials and all the Egyptians got up during the night, and there was loud wailing in Egypt, for there was not a house without someone dead.

    So 400 years in advance God says he'll "punish the nation they serve as slaves". Why? Because as He says, Israel is His firstborn son. Egypt isn't, neither are the Amorites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Canaanites, the Hivites or the Jebusites; (Ex 23:23). In fact, God says of these, "I will completely destroy them".

    Just as Jesus said to the twelve and his followers, "To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables, so that while seeing, they may see and not perceive, and while hearing, they may hear and not understand, otherwise they might return and be forgiven" so it was with the Egyptians. They were not told about the Passover. It was not for them. Intentionally. Egypt was not God's son, Israel was. Israel was to be saved. Intentionally. Egypt was to be punished. Intentionally.

    So, on the greater scale we see that the original passover lamb was for Israel only. Israel who were God's chosen people. Those outside the chosen nation were punished. On a smaller scale, at that stage there were many lambs representing the eventual Lamb of God, again each lamb covered a specific family (or group), no one else.

    And so the Lamb of God was also sacrificed for Israel, not Egypt. And physically Israel wasn't even all Abraham's descendants being limited to the children of promise. But we, as we are taught in Galatians, are part of those children of promise because "Scripture, fore(saw) that God would justify the Gentiles by faith" Gal 3:8.

    Sure "The Lamb was slaughtered so that WHOSOEVER applies the blood of Jesus will be saved from the wrath of God.", but with Israel the lamb was only for them, God's children, it wasn't for Egypt who were to be punished.

    Similarly with Jesus, He spoke in parables so that people couldn't understand lest they believe and be forgiven (Jn 12:40, Is 6:10, Matt 13:14, Jer 5:21)

    Yes, everyone who believes will be saved, but as Jesus said in Matt 11:25 "I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants. Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight." Just as God only revealed the passover lamb to Israel not Egypt, so even now the way to salvation is only revealed to those who are His sons, and on being revealed to them, they believe.
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  9. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    Yes, everyone who believes will be saved, but as Jesus said in Matt 11:25 "I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants. Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight." Just as God only revealed the passover lamb to Israel not Egypt, so even now the way to salvation is only revealed to those who are His sons, and on being revealed to them, they believe.
    This is the remedy for being too wise and intelligent and too little like infants :

    Mat 18:3 and said, "Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
    4 Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

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  11. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    This is the remedy for being too wise and intelligent and too little like infants :

    Mat 18:3 and said, "Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
    4 Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
    .
    Is there such a thing as a rhetorical answer?
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