Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 28

Thread: The Truth about Foreknowledge and Predestination

  1. #1
    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Posts
    7,640
    Thanked: 5995
    Blog Entries
    2

    The Truth about Foreknowledge and Predestination

    Paul was a brilliant scholar of the OT before becoming a believer. After his salvation he had incredible revelation of scripture on many subjects

    In Romans he explains very clearly how Foreknowledge & Predestination operate - God knew this would cause much confusion and wrote this as part of the canon
    The revelation that Paul wrote is simple yet brilliant in Romans 8:29-30

    v29 - For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
    v30 - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

    Look at the steps how God operates
    Foreknew
    Predestined
    Called
    Justified
    Glorified

    The FIRST step is Foreknew - This is the foundation for predestination
    God works according to his foreknowledge of everything which includes man's free will choices

    Predestination must 100% be based on God's perfect foreknowledge - to elevate predestination as No.1 is false teaching

    If only John Calvin believed scripture instead of writing and elevating his opinions and making predestination ABOVE foreknowledge
    Calvin failed badly in this major area and millions instead of accepting scripture choose Calvin's views over scripture contrary to what Paul wrote

  2. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Cardinal TT For This Useful Post:

    Colonel (05-02-2020), Ezekiel 33 (05-04-2020)

  3. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    If only John Calvin believed scripture instead of writing and elevating his opinions and making predestination ABOVE foreknowledge
    Have you studied all John Calvin's works TT?

  4. #3
    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Posts
    7,640
    Thanked: 5995
    Blog Entries
    2
    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    Have you studied all John Calvin's works TT?
    Regarding Calvin I don't doubt his salvation and his doctrines on the deity of Christ and salvation through faith in Jesus

    Calvin and the Reformed position on sovereignty/predestination have been quoted and debated on this forum and other forums for years.
    So even though I'm not a student I have enough grasp of his position on S/P to reject the main contention but there would be certain points I would agree with.

  5. The Following User Says Thank You to Cardinal TT For This Useful Post:

    Ezekiel 33 (05-04-2020)

  6. #4
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Oslo, Norway
    Posts
    14,487
    Thanked: 5793
    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    Paul was a brilliant scholar of the OT before becoming a believer. After his salvation he had incredible revelation of scripture on many subjects

    In Romans he explains very clearly how Foreknowledge & Predestination operate - God knew this would cause much confusion and wrote this as part of the canon
    The revelation that Paul wrote is simple yet brilliant in Romans 8:29-30

    v29 - For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
    v30 - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

    Look at the steps how God operates
    Foreknew
    Predestined
    Called
    Justified
    Glorified

    The FIRST step is Foreknew - This is the foundation for predestination
    God works according to his foreknowledge of everything which includes man's free will choices

    Predestination must 100% be based on God's perfect foreknowledge - to elevate predestination as No.1 is false teaching

    If only John Calvin believed scripture instead of writing and elevating his opinions and making predestination ABOVE foreknowledge
    Calvin failed badly in this major area and millions instead of accepting scripture choose Calvin's views over scripture contrary to what Paul wrote
    He isn't talking about predestination to salvation. He's talking about the foreknown being predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son. In other words, conformation to the image of the Son is an integral part of the salvation process.

    "moreover whom He (thus) predestined", 'thus' is implied in the sentence since it refers back to the previous sentence.

  7. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Colonel For This Useful Post:

    Ezekiel 33 (05-04-2020), fuego (05-02-2020)

  8. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    Calvin and the Reformed position on sovereignty/predestination have been quoted and debated on this forum and other forums for years.
    So even though I'm not a student I have enough grasp of his position on S/P to reject the main contention but there would be certain points I would agree with.
    OK so you haven't studied his writings but have a grasp on his position on S/P. Enough to reject the main contention.

    Do you know why Calvin made those contentions? How he justifies them?

    Anyway here's a nice quote from the guy: "when it is asked why the Lord did so, we must answer, 'Because he pleased.' But if you proceed farther to ask why he pleased, you ask for something greater and more sublime than the will of God, and nothing such can be found"

  9. #6
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Oslo, Norway
    Posts
    14,487
    Thanked: 5793
    FFO, how many pages are the complete works of Calvin ? 4 digits ? 5 ?

  10. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    FFO, how many pages are the complete works of Calvin ? 4 digits ? 5 ?
    I haven't a hard copy and though some on-line book sale places tell you how many pages are in books but I couldn't find an answer there. Looking at my Kindle and comparing the max locations for the Institutes and my NASB I'd guess the Institutes are as long as the Bible up to the start of Psalms, so not quiet half the Bible in length.

    I have tried to start to read them. It's not that easy.

    It's interesting though, because when you get down to it, what people actually don't like is not so much Calvin the man, but what he said: "By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death". Or to put it differently, they don't seem to like the idea of the Creator (i.e. God) being the highest authority in the universe, rather than themselves, those created, man.

  11. #8
    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Posts
    7,640
    Thanked: 5995
    Blog Entries
    2
    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    Or to put it differently, they don't seem to like the idea of the Creator (i.e. God) being the highest authority in the universe, rather than themselves, those created, man.

    Non Calvinists believe God is the highest authority in the universe they just don't accept the Calvinist view of how God exercises his authority
    All of God's attributes are at work simultaneously when he makes sovereign decisions - so his sovereignty is entwined with his love and goodness

    Calvinists make God's sovereignty cold, hard, robotic and he then decides(ordains, predestines) with no sense of his other wonderful characteristics
    I fully believe the Calvinists are wrong as do millions of others because we have ample scriptural evidence

    John 3:16 - God so loved the world that the gave his only begotten son....
    What is displayed firstly is God's amazing love. His decision to give and then act is based on his nature of love

    God's revealed love in scripture trumps Calvinist definition of sovereignty

  12. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Cardinal TT For This Useful Post:

    Colonel (05-03-2020), Ezekiel 33 (05-04-2020)

  13. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    he then decides (ordains, predestines) with no sense of his other wonderful characteristics.
    What does God say things were like TT, what you were like before you He saved you.

    For starters:
    "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me." (Psa 51:5)
    "For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment;" (Isa 64:6)
    "there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins" (Ecc 7:20) for in fact
    "The heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately sick; Who can understand it?" (Jer 17:9)

    So where did that leave you:
    "you were dead in your trespasses and sins" (Eph 2:1)
    "those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh" (Rom 8:5)
    "the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God" (Rom 8:7)
    "those who are in the flesh cannot please God" (Rom 8:8)

    And what were you like:
    "the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these" (Gal 5:19)

    So what's the solution:
    "That which is born of the flesh is flesh ... 'You must be born again.'" (John 3:6-7)

    The trouble is:
    "a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God" (1Cor 2:14)

    So what did that cold, hard robotic sovereign God do for you:
    "God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" (Rom 5:8)
    "In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will" (Eph 1:5)


    Yep TT, because of what you've done you deserved nothing less than to suffer in the deepest part of hell for all eternity. Yet in spite of that God choose to love you; God choose to send His son to the cross to pay for your sin; God lovingly drew you to Jesus; in His mercy, because you were trapped in sin and could do nothing for yourself, God gave you the faith to believe, and when you did HE SAVED YOU. In love He did this for you according to the kind intentions of His will.


    But thanks for proving my point.
    Last edited by FunFromOz; 05-03-2020 at 12:33 AM.

  14. #10
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Oslo, Norway
    Posts
    14,487
    Thanked: 5793
    The difference is that non-Calvinists believe that God draws all men through the gospel and that his drawing is resistible. Which means that not all men are saved even though God desires all men to be saved as 1 Tim 2:4 states.

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
You can forget about unexpected repair costs with an extended service contract for your Saab. Many vehicle repairs can cost thousands of dollars in unexpected expense, now may be the time to consider an extended service plan for your vehicle.