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Thread: The Truth about Foreknowledge and Predestination

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    The difference is that non-Calvinists believe that God draws all men through the gospel and that his drawing is resistible.
    Just considering this bit, not that the next bit lacks importance.

    Do non-Calvinists really "believe that God draws all men" given that most people don't actually get to hear the Gospel?

  2. #12
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    Just considering this bit, not that the next bit lacks importance.

    Do non-Calvinists really "believe that God draws all men" given that most people don't actually get to hear the Gospel?
    He does through the gospel. The gospel hasn't reached everyone but noone is exempt from its call. There is no possible scenario where God says that "I didn't intend the gospel to reach specifically you so now that you hear the gospel I refuse to draw you specifically". Like 1 Tim 2:4 says, God wants all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth.

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    He does through the gospel. The gospel hasn't reached everyone but noone is exempt from its call. There is no possible scenario where God says that "I didn't intend the gospel to reach specifically you so now that you hear the gospel I refuse to draw you specifically". Like 1 Tim 2:4 says, God wants all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth.
    I think I understand the double negative, but how does that fit with the Spirit forbidding Paul and Silas speaking and Asia and Jesus not permitting them to got to Bithynia.

    How also do you understand Jesus' statements in John 6 which, for me, that seems to tie into: (emphasis mine)

    Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, "I am the bread that came down out of heaven." They were saying, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, 'I have come down out of heaven'?" Jesus answered and said to them, "Do not grumble among yourselves. No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught of God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

    "No one can come unless" seems to set outer boundaries. "and I will" and "everyone who has heard comes" seems to set certainty.

  4. #14
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Your verse isn't about irresistible grace, it's says something about the need for being drawn and then talks about the physical resurrection from the dead of those who come to him (and who die in the faith, implicitly). But keep insisting.

  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    ... it's says something about the need for being drawn ...
    Does it just "say something"?

    No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him (Jesus)

    Doesn't it say:
    No one - not anyone
    can - has the ability to (the ability to what)
    come to Me - so no person has the ability to come to Jesus
    unless - except if. The next bit has to apply for the first bit to be possible
    the Father - we know who that is
    who sent Me - just verifying His credentials to the Jews perhaps
    draws him - that's the second part of the "unless"

    If everyone IS drawn what is the meaning of that sentence? The Jews were grumbling saying "Who is this guy? He's just the son of Joseph and Mary!", in other words they didn't recognise Him as the Christ. And what does Jesus say? "Well see it's like this guys, No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him."

    And in the same sentence Jesus also says "Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me".

    Again:
    Everyone - each and every person
    who -
    a limiting factor
    has heard and learned -
    that's the limit. Each and every person who has heard
    from the Father, -
    whom he has heard
    comes to Me -
    and this is what he does.

    No one can unless. Everyone who hears comes. And that everyone is the same word as in 1 Tim 2:4.

  6. #16
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    Does it just "say something"?

    No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him (Jesus)

    Doesn't it say:
    No one - not anyone
    can - has the ability to (the ability to what)
    come to Me - so no person has the ability to come to Jesus
    unless - except if. The next bit has to apply for the first bit to be possible
    the Father - we know who that is
    who sent Me - just verifying His credentials to the Jews perhaps
    draws him - that's the second part of the "unless"

    If everyone IS drawn what is the meaning of that sentence? The Jews were grumbling saying "Who is this guy? He's just the son of Joseph and Mary!", in other words they didn't recognise Him as the Christ. And what does Jesus say? "Well see it's like this guys, No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him."

    And in the same sentence Jesus also says "Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me".

    Again:
    Everyone - each and every person
    who -
    a limiting factor
    has heard and learned -
    that's the limit. Each and every person who has heard
    from the Father, -
    whom he has heard
    comes to Me -
    and this is what he does.

    No one can unless. Everyone who hears comes. And that everyone is the same word as in 1 Tim 2:4.
    John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    And in the same sentence Jesus also says "Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me".
    We all need to learn when we hear instead of just hearing idly.

    John 5:25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live

    The first "hear" is in the passive voice in the original Greek, the second "hear" is in the middle voice. So the dead hear but only those who listen (a more active "hear") come alive.

    People hear the gospel then some choose to listen by taking heed of the message and acting on it.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Ezekiel 33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    OK so you haven't studied his writings but have a grasp on his position on S/P. Enough to reject the main contention.

    Do you know why Calvin made those contentions? How he justifies them?

    Anyway here's a nice quote from the guy: "when it is asked why the Lord did so, we must answer, 'Because he pleased.' But if you proceed farther to ask why he pleased, you ask for something greater and more sublime than the will of God, and nothing such can be found"
    But that is a non-answer answer!

  9. #19
    Senior Member Ezekiel 33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    I haven't a hard copy and though some on-line book sale places tell you how many pages are in books but I couldn't find an answer there. Looking at my Kindle and comparing the max locations for the Institutes and my NASB I'd guess the Institutes are as long as the Bible up to the start of Psalms, so not quiet half the Bible in length.

    I have tried to start to read them. It's not that easy.

    It's interesting though, because when you get down to it, what people actually don't like is not so much Calvin the man, but what he said: "By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death". Or to put it differently, they don't seem to like the idea of the Creator (i.e. God) being the highest authority in the universe, rather than themselves, those created, man.
    When in all reality what most of us don't like is that his concept of God makes God out to be the creator of evil/sin/bad intentions toward His own creation. The bible does not paint that picture of God.

  10. #20
    Senior Member Ezekiel 33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    What does God say things were like TT, what you were like before you He saved you.

    For starters:
    "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me." (Psa 51:5)
    "For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment;" (Isa 64:6)
    "there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins" (Ecc 7:20) for in fact
    "The heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately sick; Who can understand it?" (Jer 17:9)

    So where did that leave you:
    "you were dead in your trespasses and sins" (Eph 2:1)
    "those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh" (Rom 8:5)
    "the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God" (Rom 8:7)
    "those who are in the flesh cannot please God" (Rom 8:8)

    And what were you like:
    "the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these" (Gal 5:19)

    So what's the solution:
    "That which is born of the flesh is flesh ... 'You must be born again.'" (John 3:6-7)

    The trouble is:
    "a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God" (1Cor 2:14)

    So what did that cold, hard robotic sovereign God do for you:
    "God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" (Rom 5:8)
    "In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will" (Eph 1:5)


    Yep TT, because of what you've done you deserved nothing less than to suffer in the deepest part of hell for all eternity. Yet in spite of that God choose to love you; God choose to send His son to the cross to pay for your sin; God lovingly drew you to Jesus; in His mercy, because you were trapped in sin and could do nothing for yourself, God gave you the faith to believe, and when you did HE SAVED YOU. In love He did this for you according to the kind intentions of His will.


    But thanks for proving my point.
    But where you are missing the boat is that God did this for ALL mankind. God is no respecter of persons.

    Acts 10:33-35 New King James Version (NKJV)

    33 So I sent to you immediately, and you have done well to come. Now therefore, we are all present before God, to hear all the things commanded you by God."

    34 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: "In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.


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