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Thread: The wrath of God

  1. #1
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    The wrath of God

    Isaiah 53:4 Surely He has borne our griefs
    And carried our sorrows;
    Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
    Smitten by God, and afflicted.
    5 But He was wounded for our transgressions,
    He was bruised for our iniquities;
    The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
    And by His stripes we are healed.
    6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
    We have turned, every one, to his own way;
    And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

    Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men

    God's wrath is revealed from heaven, not merely through the works of Satan. Since our iniquity was lain on Jesus therefore God's wrath was revealed from heaven and laid on Jesus.

    That is something that makes a lot of people very emotional, including Christians :

    "How could the Father punish Jesus who was innocent and who had not done anything"

    That's because Jesus made the choice to take our sins upon himself so that we would go free

    "But couldn't the Father have let Satan have a go at him while looking the other way"

    Since the Father forsook Jesus based on our sins that were lain upon him, Satan had the opportunity to go after him but that was not sufficient for salvation. Jesus had to suffer God's wrath over our sins so that that wrath would be satisfied and would no longer be directed at us.

    "But that makes God an unjust monster"

    Jesus might think so but he didn't, he decided to obey his Father and take the punishment for our sins upon himself, including the wrath of God that was revealed from heaven.

    "Okay but God shouldn't punish Jesus too much or let him endure too much suffering. After all, he was his own son and he was innocent"

    You see, that is not for you to dictate, however emotional you feel about it.

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    FunFromOz (04-24-2020)

  3. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    "How could the Father punish Jesus who was innocent and who had not done anything"

    That's because Jesus made the choice to take our sins upon himself so that we would go free
    Exactly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Jesus had to suffer God's wrath over our sins so that that wrath would be satisfied and would no longer be directed at us.
    Also exactly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    "But that makes God an unjust monster"
    No, that makes God just.

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Jesus ... decided to obey his Father and take the punishment for our sins upon himself, including the wrath of God that was revealed from heaven.
    Also also exactly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    "Okay but God shouldn't punish Jesus too much or let him endure too much suffering. After all, he was his own son and he was innocent"
    Jesus' suffering had to correspond to the wrath generated by the sin that was laid on Him. (or wording something like that).

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    You see, that is not for you to dictate, however emotional you feel about it.
    That reminds me of mothers of murders saying "My Johnny's such a good boy". Get a grip. As someone said Jesus' "death was nothing less than a punishment administrated by God for sins others had committed. ... if the idea seems shocking and disturbing, it is meant to be. Unless you recoil from the thought, you probably haven't grasped it yet."

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    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    Exactly.

    Also exactly.

    No, that makes God just.

    Also also exactly.

    Jesus' suffering had to correspond to the wrath generated by the sin that was laid on Him. (or wording something like that).

    That reminds me of mothers of murders saying "My Johnny's such a good boy". Get a grip. As someone said Jesus' "death was nothing less than a punishment administrated by God for sins others had committed. ... if the idea seems shocking and disturbing, it is meant to be. Unless you recoil from the thought, you probably haven't grasped it yet."
    In that case I don't understand why you object to Jesus suffering until he was resurrected from the dead, meaning it continued while he was in Hades. Or is it just Copeland's renditions you object to ?

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    "Okay but God shouldn't punish Jesus too much or let him endure too much suffering. After all, he was his own son and he was innocent"
    Hopefully not too far off topic, but that type of comment reminds me of a Psalm I read last night, Psalm 92.

    In Psalm 92 we have two verses which we used to sing in reverse order:

    13 Those that be planted in the house of the Lord shall flourish in the courts of our God.
    12 The righteous shall flourish like the palm tree: he shall grow like a cedar in Lebanon.

    What we never sang though was these previous verses:

    5 O Lord, how great are thy works! and thy thoughts are very deep.
    6 A brutish man knoweth not; neither doth a fool understand this.
    7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:


    The Psalms were meant to be sung. Paul said to "sing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs".

    Both sets of words are in the Bible.
    Both sets of words are in the same book in the Bible.
    Both sets of words are in the same chapter of the same book in the Bible.
    Both sets of words are true.

    Is ignoring half a Psalm like only eating sweets?; like not eating our greens?, or fruit? Is ignoring parts of the Bible simply dumb?

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    In that case I don't understand why you object to Jesus suffering until he was resurrected from the dead, meaning it continued while he was in Hades. Or is it just Copeland's renditions you object to ?
    I'm not sure what I've previously said that would lead you to ask that. I'll have to look it up.

  7. #6
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    I'm not sure what I've previously said that would lead you to ask that. I'll have to look it up.
    You asked why MacArthur was supposed to be worse than Copeland and posted a video of him going on about JDS.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    You asked why MacArthur was supposed to be worse than Copeland and posted a video of him going on about JDS.
    I remember that question, and you justifiably pinged the tone of it. (Would need clarification on the particular video).

    I said that because what Copeland was saying, in my opinion, had no Scriptural backing. It was the product of his imagination. (Actually it may be true, but if God hasn't told us something we are no allowed to fill in the gaps ourselves. We go with we've got and leave it at that). Meanwhile when I've watched MacArthur he's either starting with Scripture and explaining it with the support of other Scripture, or looking at something and asking how it lines up with Scripture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    I remember that question, and you justifiably pinged the tone of it. (Would need clarification on the particular video).

    I said that because what Copeland was saying, in my opinion, had no Scriptural backing. It was the product of his imagination. (Actually it may be true, but if God hasn't told us something we are no allowed to fill in the gaps ourselves. We go with we've got and leave it at that). Meanwhile when I've watched MacArthur he's either starting with Scripture and explaining it with the support of other Scripture, or looking at something and asking how it lines up with Scripture.
    Okay so you believe in some form of JDS just you think that some of its proponents like Copeland have gone too far with it. Is that correct ?

  10. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Okay so you believe in some form of JDS just you think that some of its proponents like Copeland have gone too far with it. Is that correct ?
    Sorry I don't understand the abbreviation JDS.

  11. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    Sorry I don't understand the abbreviation JDS.
    "Jesus died spiritually". Antis typically reject the notion that Jesus suffered after he died physically.

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