Results 1 to 8 of 8

Thread: Revelation 15-16

  1. #1
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Oslo, Norway
    Posts
    12,437
    Thanked: 4760

    Revelation 15-16

    So I'm reading the book and I come across :

    15:6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.

    I note that the angels are coming out of God's temple in heaven and their description signifies righteousness, they are God's angels and not Satanic ones. So what do they do ?

    7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
    8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

    The four beasts are heavenly ones too, they are mentioned in the previous chapter :

    14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

    Next chapter :

    16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
    2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
    3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

    And so on. Where is Satan involved in this ? There's no mention of him. Just heavenly angels pouring out God's wrath and the effect is calamity upon human beings. Permissive judgments ? Well who is being permitted to do what ?

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to Colonel For This Useful Post:

    Ezekiel 33 (01-13-2020)

  3. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    So I'm reading the book and I come across :

    15:6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.

    I note that the angels are coming out of God's temple in heaven and their description signifies righteousness, they are God's angels and not Satanic ones. So what do they do ?

    7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
    8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

    The four beasts are heavenly ones too, they are mentioned in the previous chapter :

    14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

    Next chapter :

    16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
    2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
    3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

    And so on. Where is Satan involved in this ? There's no mention of him. Just heavenly angels pouring out God's wrath and the effect is calamity upon human beings. Permissive judgments ? Well who is being permitted to do what ?
    I address that in my upcoming book, "The Wrath of God: What It Is and How It is Executed"

    Revelation 15-16-cover-jpg

    Below is a quote from the 12th chapter of the book titled, "God's Wrath in the Book of Revelation" (pp. 99, 100):

    In Rev. 16:1 God commands the angel to "pour out" the vials. These vials-bowls represent the Old Testament analogy in which God's wrath is "poured out" (2 Chron. 12:7; 34:21, 25; Psalm 69:24; 79:6; Eze. 21:31; 22:31; Hosea 5:10). God told Israel:

    And I will pour out mine indignation upon thee, I will blow against thee in the fire of my wrath, and deliver thee into the hand of brutish men, and skilful to destroy. (Ezekiel 21:31)

    God pours out His wrath or indignation by delivering them into the hands of brutal men. The Unlocked Dynamic Bible says, "I will allow brutal men to capture them, men who are experts at killing people." Therefore, these vials of wrath are to be understood from a permissive sense.

    The chapter proves by "interpreting Scripture with Scripture" how God's wrath in the book of Revelation is permissive rather than causative. Please keep in mind that since I have taken the time to write a whole book on the subject that I will NOT get into a long, drawn out debate over this. This is only to state that there is an answer to this if anyone really wants the answer.

    If one already has their mind made up on this subject then no amount of debate will make a difference.
    Christ's Victory Bible Teaching Center
    Web site: http://www.cvbibleteachingcenter.org


    Vindicating God Ministries
    (A Unique New Bible Teaching Ministry)
    Web site: http://www.vindicatinggod.org
    Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/vindicatinggod
    Twitter: https://twitter.com/_victoriousword

  4. The Following User Says Thank You to victoryword For This Useful Post:

    Ezekiel 33 (01-13-2020)

  5. #3
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Oslo, Norway
    Posts
    12,437
    Thanked: 4760
    I don't have my mind made up on which passages should be seen as active and which should be seen as permissive. I simply look at evidence. All you did above was declare that the permissive sense should be implied everywhere without other evidence than "scripture interprets scripture". Which really just means that you have decided upon a blanket principle that you apply everywhere, at will.

  6. The Following User Says Thank You to Colonel For This Useful Post:

    Ezekiel 33 (01-13-2020)

  7. #4
    Deleted
    Last edited by victoryword; 01-12-2020 at 09:40 AM. Reason: Deleted
    Christ's Victory Bible Teaching Center
    Web site: http://www.cvbibleteachingcenter.org


    Vindicating God Ministries
    (A Unique New Bible Teaching Ministry)
    Web site: http://www.vindicatinggod.org
    Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/vindicatinggod
    Twitter: https://twitter.com/_victoriousword

  8. #5
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Oslo, Norway
    Posts
    12,437
    Thanked: 4760
    Quote Originally Posted by victoryword View Post
    Deleted
    I've seen you debate Calvinists in exactly the same way.
    Last edited by victoryword; 01-12-2020 at 09:40 AM.

  9. #6
    Senior Member Smitty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Location
    Everett, Washington
    Posts
    605
    Thanked: 525
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    15:6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.
    We know that this constitutes the Vial Judgments. These seven angels attire is the same as Jesus had on in Rev 1:13, signifying to what they are about to do pertains solely to the work of Christ; in other words, Christ is in charge of all the judgments. "All authority has been given to me in heaven and earth...Mt 28:18; the angels are awaiting Christ's orders to carry out His commands upon the earth.
    After the seventh angel pours out the last vial; "...and there came a great voice out of the Temple of Heaven, from the Throne, saying, It is done (Rev 16:17). The mighty voice that shouted "Finished" from the cross will now shout "Finished" from the Throne.
    The Divine purpose in grace was finished at the cross; as is here, the Divine purpose in wrath is finished.


    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Where is Satan involved in this ? There's no mention of him. Just heavenly angels pouring out God's wrath and the effect is calamity upon human beings. Permissive judgments ? Well who is being permitted to do what ?
    The devil is no where to be found in the outpouring of the seven vial judgments because he is not involved with them.
    Satan's wrath is found in Rev 12:12; "...Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea, for the devil has come down unto you, having great wrath." Which pertains to satan being cast out of heaven, down to earth, being filled with great anger and rage, knowing that he has but a short time to intensify his diabolical efforts against mankind through the administration of antichrist's reign.
    God's wrath (anger) is "His Divine Purpose" being poured out upon a God rejecting, antichrist worshipping godless evil society. Shortly thereafter, Armageddon will follow and the soon return of the Lord Jesus Christ. Lastly, the way I see it, the angels are being permitted to accomplish God's divine purpose throughout the outpouring of the seven vials at the direction of the Lord Jesus Christ who is "God the Son" the second person of the eternal godhead.
    Of coarse Colonel, what I post here is merely my own commentary, and I am no way the final authority of what is being portrayed in Revelation 15 and 16.
    If you put God First, you have Him at Last.

  10. #7
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Oslo, Norway
    Posts
    12,437
    Thanked: 4760
    We also have :

    Luke 9:51 Now it came to pass, when the time had come for Him to be received up, that He steadfastly set His face to go to Jerusalem, 52 and sent messengers before His face. And as they went, they entered a village of the Samaritans, to prepare for Him. 53 But they did not receive Him, because His face was set for the journey to Jerusalem. 54 And when His disciples James and John saw this, they said, "Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, [j]just as Elijah did?"
    55 But He turned and rebuked them, [k]and said, "You do not know what manner of spirit you are of. 56 [l]For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives but to save them." And they went to another village.

    Whereas the devil is happy with destroying everyone and everything, God's judgments operate according to the principles of justice. He even says that mercy triumphs over judgment so God's wrath and how it operates is a very difficult subject. It's never God's best will and it typically operates in a setting of finality.

  11. #8
    Senior Member Smitty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Location
    Everett, Washington
    Posts
    605
    Thanked: 525
    Blog Entries
    1
    Patience is a characteristic of God Himself. He has patience with sinners, withholding His judgment and providing instead a way of salvation (Ps 103:8, Jonah 4:2).
    Those who respond to His patience and mercy in repentance receive His forgiveness through Christ. Those who despise or ignore it fall under His punishment (1 Tim 1:16, 2 Peter 3:9, 2 Thess 1:8-9).)
    God's attitude of opposition to all that is evil (continually) is usually called His wrath, or anger. God's wrath is consistent and pure. It is holy, righteous and just reaction to sin--the only proper reaction for One who is Himself holy, righteous and just (Ex 32:9-10, Heb 12:29).
    God, as the supreme judge, can neither take pleasure in sin nor ignore it. Therefore, all people, being sinners, are objects of His wrath (Ps 7:11, Eph 2:3, Col 3:5-6).
    However, God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked (punishing sin). He is longsuffering towards sinners, and gives them the opportunity to repent of their sin and ask His forgiveness (Ezk 33:11, 14-15, 2 Peter 3:9).
    The final great outpouring of God's wrath (OP) will take place at the close of the age, when Jesus Christ returns in power and glory to execute judgment on the ungodly (Rm 2:5, Rev 6:17, 14:19, 19:11-16). God's people will not experience this wrath, for they have been saved from it through Jesus Christ (1 Thess 1:10, 5:9).
    But those who deliberately choose to continue in their sin refusing to trust Jesus as their substitute must bear God's wrath themselves (Rev 16: 10-11, Jn 3:36).
    If you put God First, you have Him at Last.

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Has your Volkswagen CC warranty expired? Get a fast online quote from CarWarrantyUS today. Enjoy the open road and leave the repairs to us.