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Thread: My Grace is Sufficient for Thee

  1. #11
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fuego View Post
    Well, not sure I want to tackle it unless I can figure out how to say it succinctly.
    Well you're the man, you have even more experience with this language than I have with Norwegian.

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  3. #12
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    The five Norwegian Bible translations that I could find, from 1930 through 2011 translate "angelos" in 2 Cor 12:7 as angel. I had a look at a list of translations at Read & Study The Bible - Daily Verse, Scripture by Topic, Stories and most English translations say messenger. Most of them are based on the 1600s KJV translation. A few modern ones say angel. The translation from old to modern Greek says angel.

    The two translations that predate the KJV, the Douay-Rhiems Catholic Bible and the protestant Wycliffe Bible from the 1300s, say angel. This seems very much to be a persisting KJV-inspired translation bug. And then you get interpretative translations like the one from the Good News Bible :

    "But to keep me from being puffed up with pride because of the many wonderful things I saw, I was given a painful physical ailment, which acts as Satan's messenger to beat me and keep me from being proud."

    Which is absolutely horrible.

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  5. #13
    I'm not really sure it matters what the thorn was. God's grace is sufficient, no matter if it's sickness, blindness, or a contrary person. Perhaps we all should wield that verse according to whatever thorn we face in life. The fact that it was a messenger of Satan makes it even more appropriate for any kind of thorn originating from Satan, given that we have authority over him. If the thorn doesn't depart, we can still claim victory by appropriating the "sufficient grace" necessary to bear it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bookman View Post
    I'm not really sure it matters what the thorn was. God's grace is sufficient, no matter if it's sickness, blindness, or a contrary person. Perhaps we all should wield that verse according to whatever thorn we face in life. The fact that it was a messenger of Satan makes it even more appropriate for any kind of thorn originating from Satan, given that we have authority over him. If the thorn doesn't depart, we can still claim victory by appropriating the "sufficient grace" necessary to bear it.
    Please differentiate between the thorn and the effects of the thorn. The effects of the thorn are mentioned in the previous chapter but they are also summed up after his discussion on the thorn :

    2 Cor 12:9 And He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness." Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
    10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ's sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

    He's talking about ministry not about his life in general. The whole passage may have next to no application to anyone's daily life and struggles if they do not involve struggles related to ministry as such. Some of my minister friends from various third world countries would be able to relate well to what Paul is specifically talking about. One of them constantly faces people from a different religion that think about killing him for converting people to Christianity.

  7. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bookman View Post
    I'm not really sure it matters what the thorn was.
    Because of the way many believe, many 'hear' or read this as, "God allowed/gave a sickness to me to keep me humble." So it is important how one interprets what the thorn was. God does not inflict his children with disease. Having said that, I agree that His grace is sufficient and one releases it by what Paul writes after that, which I haven't addressed yet, which involves getting the power or God involved to help one deal with it/remove it.

    If one reads the end of Acts Paul is no longer dealing with what he mentioned in chapter 11. He's living a pretty peaceful life at the moment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fuego View Post
    Because of the way many believe, many 'hear' or read this as, "God allowed/gave a sickness to me to keep me humble." So it is important how one interprets what the thorn was. God does not inflict his children with disease. Having said that, I agree that His grace is sufficient and one releases it by what Paul writes after that, which I haven't addressed yet, which involves getting the power or God involved to help one deal with it/remove it.

    If one reads the end of Acts Paul is no longer dealing with what he mentioned in chapter 11. He's living a pretty peaceful life at the moment.
    We can't be sure of that because Satanic angels are among the powers and principalities that our fight is against in general. Demons can be cast out, angels cannot, they remain "in the air" so to speak. We can pray that God's angels would keep them back and a principality like that might give up on keeping someone like Paul a continual target and choose to try to do something else but it cannot be forced to make that choice. So even if Paul was at relative ease in Rome at the time of writing it doesn't mean that the Satanic angel in question had quit targetting him. Paul's being a target doesn't imply a continual avalanche of tribulation, just that the principality continues to plot against him.

    The main point, which the faulty English translations obscure, is that Paul's situation was completely different to that of most Christians, whatever they happen to be suffering. Most Christians are not at all targetted by a principality that cannot be dealt with except indirectly through prayer. Suffering Christians like to read themselves and their situations into the chapter and some of it amounts to arrogance and self importance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nikos View Post
    That's a good teaching. I've had it saved for a few years.

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    Grace is God's empowering provision to overcome...Paul made that clear....He is revealed when God's grace empowers me in my weak areas.

    However I agree that Paul never listed sickness as something he suffered.....

    What was Paul referring to when he said 'you would have gladly plucked out your eyes and given them to me'? Do we know what he was experiencing then and why?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quest View Post
    Grace is God's empowering provision to overcome...Paul made that clear....He is revealed when God's grace empowers me in my weak areas.

    However I agree that Paul never listed sickness as something he suffered.....

    What was Paul referring to when he said 'you would have gladly plucked out your eyes and given them to me'? Do we know what he was experiencing then and why?
    I believe he had just been persecuted physically before he arrived in their town and looked unappealing. Still they received him and their attitude was grateful or helpful to the degree that the metaphor suggests "plucked out your eyes and given them to me".

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