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Thread: Hebrews 6:4-6

  1. #11
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    Reconstructing a ritual for reentry into Judaism isn't that difficult. Four components are mentioned.

    1) "Recrucifying Jesus for themselves, putting him to open shame"

    That would undo his resurrection and bring him back on the course to die the death of an unrighteous man, in the mind of the one undergoing the ritual.

    2) "trampling the Son of God underfoot"

    Which sounds like bringing Jesus under the subjection of the person and Satan whom he now serves, instead of serving Jesus whom all things are subject to.

    3) "counting the blood of the covenant an unholy thing"

    Jesus' shed blood which represents his soul are the most precious and holy things in the new covenant and also what is effective for salvation, so declaring his blood common or unholy undoes that.

    4) "insulting the Spirit of Grace"

    God's Spirit is mentioned several times in the OT but wasn't a huge matter in Judaism and they may have counted the Holy Spirit issued on Pentecost as a different spirit. Insulting him would undo any effects that that Spirit had had upon them.

    A ritual like this wouldn't need to be particularly elobarate. Taking an effigy of Jesus and trampling him underfoot then nailing him to a cross then pouring out some blood and making a declaration against it and "the Spirit of grace" would be enough. But the effect that this diabolical ritual would have on Christians with an understanding of the elements involved would be devastating.

    Speculative ? I think the components listed make perfect sense for such a ritual. It doesn't take much lateral thinking to see how that would work. I think it is much more speculative to first assume that they are all metaphors and then speculate on what it's all a metaphor for (sin, unbelief etc).

  2. #12
    Administrator fuego's Avatar
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    Not sure about all this 'ritual' stuff and where you're coming from taking it literally. What's listed is just what automatically happens, what is the end result of once having been with Jesus and then going back into a religious systems that denies who He is.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by fuego View Post
    Not sure about all this 'ritual' stuff and where you're coming from taking it literally. What's listed is just what automatically happens, what is the end result of once having been with Jesus and then going back into a religious systems that denies who He is.
    What gives you the right to take all of that detail and pull it together into a metaphor of one single thing - general apostasy ? There is no precedent anywhere else in the Bible for describing general apostasy in any of those terms. Nor the practice of living in sin as someone else claims it's all a metaphor of.

  4. #14
    Administrator fuego's Avatar
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    I think you just overthink things sometimes.

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    According to the commentary of Jamieson, Fausset and Brown on Hebrews 10,

    "Of the Jews who became Christians and relapsed to Judaism, we find from the history of Uriel Acosta, that they required a blasphemy against Christ."

    http://bibleapps.com/jfb/hebrews/10.htm

    Uriel Acosta lived at the time of the Spanish Inquisition in the 15-1600s. Is there a historical connection between that and what happened during earlier centuries ? Considering how much blasphemy against Jesus is found in Jewish writings from various time periods I don't find it unlikely that the same requirement was made of people wishing to convert from Christianity and back to Judaism at the time of the writing of the letter to the Hebrews.

  6. #16
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    Who were "the Hebrews" ? They weren't merely Jewish Christians. Acts 6 differentiates between the Hebrew speaking and the Greek speaking Jews - the Hellenists. The latter qualified as Jews but were influenced by the Greek culture permeating the Roman empire and spoke Greek rather than Hebrew. In the gospels we see how Jesus is confronted by "the Jews" and other times by "the people". The people were Jewish in the sense that they were circumcised, participated in Jewish rituals and the synagogue but they weren't fervent followers like the Pharisees. Not all "Jews" were Pharisees, scribes or priests however, so those are general fervent followers who were into the scriptures and Jewish traditions. In addition to that we have "the God fearing" like Cornelius who hadn't converted fully to Judaism by way of circumcision and a more strict observance, it was still not allowed for Jews to eat with them.
    It seems clear to me that the audience of the letter to the Hebrews were not converts from among "the God fearing", nor from among "the people" nor from among the Hellenists. Paul mentions to the Corinthians that he was "a Hebrew among Hebrews". They were Jews in the fullest sense and their origin was a strict observance of the Judaism of that day.
    It seems reasonable that their only path to being accepted as such again had become a difficult one by the time of the writing of the letter when Christianity was increasingly seen as a new religion or at least heresy rather than merely as one out of many Jewish sects. That's why the author issues a number of warnings because returning to Judaism would probably bring them beyond the point of no return and only "a fearful expectance of judgment" would be their experience from that point and on.

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    Senior Member Ezekiel 33's Avatar
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    Have you ever wondered why Paul lists 2 different groups who will suffer the vengeance of the Lord when He comes through the clouds?
    First, there are "those who do not know God" and second, there are "those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ".

    To me, this means that there is a group who know God but no longer obey the gospel. They have walked away from the kingdom.


    2 Thessalonians 1:6-10 (NKJV)

    6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

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    It could simply mean that they have a general knowledge of the gospel and the first group has none.

  10. #19
    Super Moderator Quest's Avatar
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    I believe the Spirit led me to do an aerial view of chapters 4-12. In several places, such as this in chapter 6, he fleshes out the matter in a context relevant to them. This is not NEW in scripture...but Jesus in several places took the contextual view of passages in the OT and clearly interpreted them in a way the Pharisees did not see...

    The passage in question is only part of a much bigger picture that begins in chapter 4...obtaining entering and remaining in the rest of faith that obtains the Promise. THAT message is for all believers.

    Chapter 5 says He can offer compassion for the ignorant but goes on to lead them to understand HE learned obedience through suffering...AND....ultimately became the author and finisher of OUR faith.

    6 begins with THEREFORE leave the elementary things behind and move on to maturity..

    Vs 12 Do not become sluggish, but imitate those who through faith and patience inherit the promise...

    Reading not getting bogged down in the Hebrew fleshing out which is nothing more than what a teacher today would do...the concepts fleshed out in a relative and applicable way...

    The thread of the Promise and faith are woven throughout this message so the apostasy is not merely returning to Judaism although that was the immediate and relative application to THEM...

    As I was reading I got to chapter 8...'This is the main point...' but the Spirit said that is not the full view...keep reading...

    Hebrews 9-10 begins to solidify the message...Jesus the final absolute High Priest and vs 16...This is the NEW Covenant. I will put My laws in your heart and in your mind.

    10:35 Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:

    11 speaks of the faith rest presented in chapter 4 so the thread continues....

    12:1-3 12 Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

    VS 26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no sacrifice for sins but a fearful expectation of judgement and fiery indignation...

    Now if you were not paying attention to the previous chapters you could interpret that to mean any sinful act brings you to a lost state but if that were accurate we know NONE would be saved. AND there is no constant oscillation in and out of the kingdom crucifying Christ over and over again. We know this because he just said that we should lay aside the sin...So he is speaking of something more specific than the sin and weights that beset us.

    37 “For yet a little while,
    And He who is coming will come and will not [b]tarry.
    38 Now the just shall live by faith;
    But if anyone draws back,
    My soul has no pleasure in him.”

    39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.


    Conclusion....Hebrews is addressing a specific LEVEL of apostasy demonstrated by Hebrews returning to Judaism but is not saying returning to Judaism is the only FORM of permanent apostasy. He is affirming, IMHO the simple reality that Jesus is the only way truth and life and that we can, indeed allow sin and weights to take us to that place. As was stated in the beginning of this thread...sin will lead us to this place of apostasy where we cast off our only hope, faith in Jesus, our High Priest and the author and finisher of our faith; that we must mature in that faith through enduring trials and tests and corrections of the Lord that are designed to, if we hold fast the confession of our faith, mature us.

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  12. #20
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    One of my cousins was a believer then came to the point where he told his father that he would no longer "have anything to do with Jesus". Months later he repented and took up the faith again. That's temporary apostasy. He wasn't a mature believer. I don't think that what he did has anything to do with "recrucifying Christ and putting him to open shame" or "desecrating the blood of the covenant and the Spirit of grace". He spoke words against Jesus but Jesus said that people would be forgiven for that even though they wouldn't be forgiven for blaspheming against the Holy Spirit.

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