Thread: Matthew 18:15-19

15*“If your brother sins[k], go and [l]show him his fault [m]in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16*But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every [n]fact may be confirmed. 17*If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as [o]a Gentile and [p]a tax collector. 18*Truly I say to you, whatever you [q]bind on earth [r]shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you [s]loose on earth [t]shall have been loosed in heaven.
19*“Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them [u]by My Father who is in heaven. 20*For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst.”

A post on Facebook challenged taking vs 20 out of the context of church discipline. So typically using it to affirm His presence in small groups is false...

So IS this verse speaking ONLY of a setting of discipline with 2 or 3 witnesses or is it applicable in all gatherings IN HIS NAME...denoting a different level of anointing and authority than where there is just one?

What say ye?

"For where two or three have gathered together in My name to show someone his fault, I am there in their midst"

Nope, it doesn't say that. There is even a part about asking in general between those two statements. That's a more immediate context for verse 20.

I don't know...I found NUMEROUS sites that give a good argument on this....

They point to the concept of the 2 or three witnesses...and that binding and losing are the action of authority by Jesus as these witnesses accurately give witness...

One refers to Matthew 16 speaking of binding and loosing and keys to the kingdom...

Good point on verse 19 though....I think that may BE the catalyst..

Originally Posted by Quest

15*“If your brother sins[k], go and [l]show him his fault [m]in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16*But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every [n]fact may be confirmed. 17*If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as [o]a Gentile and [p]a tax collector. 18*Truly I say to you, whatever you [q]bind on earth [r]shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you [s]loose on earth [t]shall have been loosed in heaven.
19*“Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them [u]by My Father who is in heaven. 20*For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst.”

A post on Facebook challenged taking vs 20 out of the context of church discipline. So typically using it to affirm His presence in small groups is false...

So IS this verse speaking ONLY of a setting of discipline with 2 or 3 witnesses or is it applicable in all gatherings IN HIS NAME...denoting a different level of anointing and authority than where there is just one?

What say ye?

The Facebook post is correct about the context there. Now whether that means that's the only situation where Jesus shows up if two or three are gathered together is another matter. But they are interpreting it in context correctly. They are binding the devil over this person, and loosing the spirit of God on his behalf so he can be restored.

The immediate context is verse 19 which precedes verse 20. It is separated from verses 15-18 by the word "again" and it introduces the concept "anything you ask" which is much broader than what verses 15-18 describe. This is a straightforward and totally neutral analysis of the sentences involved.

I agree with the Colonel here. Verse 17 finalizes the part of the trespassing brother. "...but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican." End of the matter.

Originally Posted by curly sue

I agree with the Colonel here. Verse 17 finalizes the part of the trespassing brother. "...but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican." End of the matter.

Full context. There is no change in the subject. Jesus all of a sudden just doesn't start teaching on some different subject. As a matter of fact it goes all the way to the end of the chapter. Peter's question in 21 is related to this whole subject of offense and trespass. Peter's question being in 21, and 17 still being about 'trespass', that makes 18-20 still a part of the narrative. As a matter of fact again, it goes all the way back to the first verse in the chapter. This is a whole teaching on offense, trespass, forgiveness, etc and how to deal with it all.

The first 'law' of meditation, never take a verse out of context. To try and interpret v.18-20 out of it's immediate context and the context of the whole chapter is to interpret it wrong. Now does that mean 18-20 can't be taken in a more generic sense? Not necessarily. You have to look elsewhere in the NT to see if there are other verses that support 18-20 being universal and not just related to the subject at hand.

Originally Posted by fuego

Full context. There is no change in the subject. Jesus all of a sudden just doesn't start teaching on some different subject. As a matter of fact it goes all the way to the end of the chapter. Peter's question in 21 is related to this whole subject of offense and trespass. Peter's question being in 21, and 17 still being about 'trespass', that makes 18-20 still a part of the narrative. As a matter of fact again, it goes all the way back to the first verse in the chapter. This is a whole teaching on offense, trespass, forgiveness, etc and how to deal with it all.

The first 'law' of meditation, never take a verse out of context. To try and interpret v.18-20 out of it's immediate context and the context of the whole chapter is to interpret it wrong. Now does that mean 18-20 can't be taken in a more generic sense? Not necessarily. You have to look elsewhere in the NT to see if there are other verses that support 18-20 being universal and not just related to the subject at hand.

I agree that this is the context...and take seriously that first principle of interpretation....what I questioned was the inference this is NOT applicable in other settings.

I also see that as Colonel noted the tone seems to introduce a principle that is applicable to the situation but not limited to it...

So the fact is if there is not scripture verifying it is applicable then some are correct in saying it is majorly misinterpreted....

After seeing the post I did some research and found several different teachings that stated it was limited to that context....

But another aspect is the binding and losing as this passage says noting about binding Satan or demons....not directly so would you all mind commenting also on that? Besides it is still speaking in the context of authority supported by Jesus.

From the mouth of two or three witnesses let everything be established....IN MY NAME....

anything that they may ask,

One thing seems absolute...the context is addressing the power of agreeing witnesses....

Like the disciples gathered in the upper room in ONE ACCORD...

So the passage does hold a principle within an application but not limited to it....

Originally Posted by Quest

So the passage does hold a principle within an application but not limited to it....

Very well could be applicable universally. Just have to find other scriptures to support those same principles in a general sense. For instance, didn't Jesus in Matthew 16:19 talk about binding and loosing also out of this context? So definitely binding and loosing is not limited to that context of the two or three who went to restore him using binding and loosing for the trespassers benefit in order to help restore him.