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Thread: Authority of the Believer

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    Authority of the Believer

    I found a post on an old forum that seemed interesting...he poses the question from a legal perspective...
    You can find the post here:

    https://www.christianforums.com/thre...iever.3287984/

    Now I don't know if there is a copy right issue with posting the whole post here...I would not think so, I am posting it...please delete or advise if I did this wrong..

    If you haven't gathered, I explain and/or learn by way of analogy. That's probably why I enjoyed law school. Everything there is by way of analogy.
    I am about to use a legal analogy to ask a question. I think this will be fun for a couple of reasons. (#1) If nothing else, you will learn something about the law, and (#2) I will not be doing as much of the talking after this posting.
    I must warn you, though, while this may seem like an exercise in futility or a useless academic discussion from a guy with too much time on his hands, do not take these questions lightly!
    If you examine these questions carefully and answer them with reasoned deliberation, you will have a greater understanding of your approach to your entire walk with God.
    It's that important.
    ***
    For the purposes of this thread, God's authority is made analogous to "property." Regarding this authority (i.e. this "property") that has been granted to believers:
    1. Has God granted us ownership of this authority in fee simple absolute? --OR--
    2. Has God granted us ownership of this authority in fee simple determinable? --OR--
    3. Has God granted us ownership of this authority in fee simple with the possibility of reverter? --OR—
    4. Has God granted us a life estate over this authority? --OR--
    5. Has God given us a lease on this authority? --OR--
    6. Has God granted us a power of attorney?

    ***

    Now here is our LEGAL GLOSSARY:

    FEE SIMPLE ABSOLUTE -- This is simply described as when the original owner conveys the absolute ownership of property to a new owner, with no strings attached. Once the original owner does this, he can no longer get it back (unless, of course, the new owner re-conveys it to him)

    FEE SIMPLE DETERMINABLE -- This is described as when the original owner conveys the absolute ownership of the property to a new owner; however certain strings are attached. If these obligations are not met, ownership AUTOMATICALLY reverts back to the original owner.

    FEE SIMPLE WITH POSSIBLITY OF REVERTER -- This is identical to the Fee Simple Determinable, except that ownership does not automatically revert back to the original owner when the condition is violated; the original owner must proactively take repossession of the property.

    LIFE ESTATE -- A life estate is similar to a Fee Simple Determinable, except that the condition is the death of the new owner. In other words, if the original owner grants a life estate to the new owner, even if the new owner were to sell the land to someone else, the property would revert back to the original owner upon the death of the first new owner.

    LEASE -- We all know what this is. Here, the owner keeps legal ownership of the property, but the tenant has legal possession. The owner cannot repossess the property unless the terms of the lease are violated, and even then, proper legal steps are required.

    POWER OF ATTORNEY -- Here, one person gives a second person the right to possess authority on his behalf. However, the person granting the authority can revoke it at any time. Moreover, both persons can exercise this authority concurrently.

    ***

    Now here is the big picture:

    (A.) If our authority is derived from a grant in fee simple (absolute, or determinable, or with possibility of reverter), or from the grant of a life estate, or from the grant of a lease, THEN our right of possession of this "property"--our right to exercise the authority--is exclusive of God. Subject only to the conditions placed in the aforementioned grants, we (and only we) would be able to exercise this authority; it would no longer belong to Christ. Thus if God wanted something (anything at all) done on Earth, He would need the consent of Christians.

    (B.) Conversely, if our authority is derived merely from a power of attorney, then God may exercise His power sovereignly without our permission. Moreover, if we do not comply with his bidding, He may revoke our status as his agents. Thus, if God wanted something done, He could let us use His authority, or He could act without our consent.

    Whereas alternative (A) implies that Christians have exclusive control over the spiritual and the natural realms (i.e., that God cannot act without us), alternative (B) implies that Christ and the believer share this control.

    Which is it? Discuss freely.

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    Super Moderator Quest's Avatar
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    I was listening to a podcast by Praying Medic....it was a question and answer session and someone asked about sphere of authority...he gives an excellent response...

    the question is asked at the 24 minute mark....prior to that he talks about small faith and faith growing...

    To summarize he reminds us that we have a calling...and summarizes it saying our sphere of authority expands with faithfulness and is in direct correlation with our level of intimacy and faithfulness in acting on the leading of the Spirit in our assignment...

    ALL authority is given to Jesus...and all authority is available to THE BODY...this is where some WOF teaching, IMHO falls short....we are members of the body, not THE body.

    If a body part decides it has the authority of the whole body there is a disconnect in the plan and design of the Kingdom...He formulated the Kingdom to be made up of many PARTS that MUST be interdependent....

    This is why Paul made it so clear that the hand NEEDS the foot....and the hand is NOT the foot...nor will it be...

    We are to grow in faith and gain promotions of authority in the Kingdom within our calling....

    I also believe this is why the church is falling so short....body parts are trying to be something they are not....and this is human nature...to avoid the intimacy of relationship by developing a formula....

    The authority of the believer is not a formula..we are released in it as we are intimate and faithful to our assignments...and it expands as we are faithful...

    AND it is within that same process that our faith grows...

    Trying to operate in faith and confidence outside our sphere of authority will only bring discouragement...trying to be what we are not will only bring disappointment....God does not allow us to pick and choose our own path and bless it with His power and authority...if we step outside that place of our assignment as the Spirit leads we have shifted from faith born in relationship and obedience to something else...

    What say ye?

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    https://prayingmedic.com/2017/09/pod...estion-answer/

    Here is the link sent above...

    Further on he speaks of trying to stand on scripture in areas outside our sphere of authority....

    It is inaccurate to believe the All Jesus has we each have as well...

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    The Irma thread has me pondering....

    Christians often seek to access authority they have not been given...desiring experiences that are outside their calling and directive and plan of God for them...

    When we do this we are no longer following where He wants us to go but are now trying to lead Him where WE want to go...this is clearly what Paul spoke of when he talked about the hand saying to the foot, I don't need you....it is clear the hand and foot have different 'jobs' and the empowerment of the Holy Spirit is specific to us walking in that predetermined path God has for each of us...

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    Reading a little book by Praying Medic...Seeing In The Spirit Made Simple.

    Here is a quote from that book that I believe speaks to this topic...

    "While it's true that there can be great power in the words that we speak, this is only true when our words reflect our inner-most thoughts, and our inner-most thoughts are the things we believe in our spirit. Our spirit is where faith resides. And it is faith that God and the rest of the spiritual world recognize and respond to. If our words tell a demon to leave, while our spirit is transmitting thoughts of fear, the demon will perceive that we are afraid, and will not leave."

    When I read this I thought of 2 Corinthians 3 :12-18 12*Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech— 13*unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. 14*But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. 15*But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. 16*Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17*Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18*But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.

    No matter what we know of scripture, in the Kingdom of God, the spirit realm only the level of glory we occupy influences the change in the natural realm....

    This is the disconnect in some WOF teaching and TRUTH...and it is the disconnect between what we confess and what we experience....

    Yes, the veil of sin has been removed and we are able to see accurately into the KNOWING of Christ relationally where real confidence lies, but we don't see 100% because as it states we are changed from glory to glory...

    We are elevated in faith and authority and honor in the spirit realm...the level of glory we have attained through intimacy AND scriptural revelation is the level of manifestation we will see in the natural realm in healings, deliverances, answered prayers, signs and wonders....

    Everyone has experienced those moments of time when you 'knew that you knew'. That was genuine faith...and when acted upon brought about what that faith knew...

    But we all have also experienced those times when prayed for something or someone and had only hope....

    Recognizing this is not to say we should not pray or seek or confess but it is to say we need to be honest and pursue the face of Jesus in the mirror of the Spirit to find out where we are and to allow Him to change us and move us to the next level...

    As I meditated an example came to mind...a man in which a heavy log and fell on his leg...some standing near wanted to remove the log in sincerity believing this was the right answer...and certainly from the overview of the situation it was...but then the Spirit spoke to one and said, 'warn them not to remove the log until paramedics arrive. A clot has formed and the instant they move the log the clot will go to his hear.

    We often pray and confess based on experiences of scripture and what we SEE....in the realm of the Spirit our level of glory increases as we listen and respond, not as we pray or confess...

    In the podcast I posted of Praying Medic he states that sometimes when praying for someone he will see in the spirit himself stepping into Jesus on the throne and he and Jesus extended a scepter to make a decree....but at other times he is led to pray differently...

    I believe the only authority we have in the natural is the level of glory we attained in the spirit and that level is limited by our willingness and discernment of THE Spirit that takes the things that are Jesus and reveals them to us...

    We must ask the Spirit to help us recognize our glory level continually look into HIM to advance to new levels of glory that are just the relational confidence and wisdom of application of submission, humility and obedience...

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    Interestingly Kenneth Hagen agreed with this...I can't find the quote but it was in his book on the authority of the believer...I quoted it here before and recall fuego stating he disagreed with him on this....but essentially Bro Hagen said the same thing...our authority is limited to the living active leading of the Spirit....any time we try to use it based on scripture alone we are being presumptuous...

    Here is one...


    "The Bible says, concerning the ministry of Jesus, that He cast spirits out with His Word. It also says He cast them out by the Spirit of God. It wasn't just His word speaking apart from the Spirit of God."

    "We know from the Word that we have spiritual authority, but we must depend on the Holy Spirit to help us in ministering authority. We can't do it by ourselves."

    "It seems like it's the most difficult thing in the world for the church to stay balanced. You can take any subject-including the authority of the believer-push it to extreme, and it becomes harmful and ceases to bless."

    He then gives an example 'Father Divine' who was a spirit filled born again believer whos started studying these verses on authority and ended up formulating a cult, 'If we are Christ, then I am Christ. Christ is God, so I am God.'

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quest View Post
    Interestingly Kenneth Hagen agreed with this...I can't find the quote but it was in his book on the authority of the believer...I quoted it here before and recall fuego stating he disagreed with him on this....but essentially Bro Hagen said the same thing...our authority is limited to the living active leading of the Spirit....any time we try to use it based on scripture alone we are being presumptuous...

    Here is one...


    "The Bible says, concerning the ministry of Jesus, that He cast spirits out with His Word. It also says He cast them out by the Spirit of God. It wasn't just His word speaking apart from the Spirit of God."

    "We know from the Word that we have spiritual authority, but we must depend on the Holy Spirit to help us in ministering authority. We can't do it by ourselves."
    Acts 19:12 so that even handkerchiefs or aprons were brought from his body to the sick, and the diseases left them and the evil spirits went out of them.

    Some times demons left simply because the power of God hit them. I've seen several demons leave a person as they took up the faith, repented and received the Holy Spirit. No command spoken, they simply left.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Acts 19:12 so that even handkerchiefs or aprons were brought from his body to the sick, and the diseases left them and the evil spirits went out of them.

    Some times demons left simply because the power of God hit them. I've seen several demons leave a person as they took up the faith, repented and received the Holy Spirit. No command spoken, they simply left.
    FAITH being the key....

    I do not believe true Bible faith is merely a mental assent or agreement...it is confidence...this can be present without any command...I agree..it can also be absent in the presence of commands...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quest View Post
    FAITH being the key....

    I do not believe true Bible faith is merely a mental assent or agreement...it is confidence...this can be present without any command...I agree..it can also be absent in the presence of commands...
    Well Paul wasn't present so it couldn't have been his faith to cast out demons because he didn't know what would happen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Well Paul wasn't present so it couldn't have been his faith to cast out demons because he didn't know what would happen.
    Faith in God ....not faith for a specific outcome....

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