Thread: Hebrews 12:15

Hebrews 12:15Amplified Bible (AMP)
15*See to it that no one falls short of God's grace; that no root of resentment springs up and causes trouble, and by it many be defiled;
What does this verse speak to YOU?

Specifically what does it mean to 'fall short of grace'

AND

Secondly, what relationship does that have with bitter roots?

John Piper says that the 'bitter root' is devaluing one's salvation and abusing it through repetitive sin...which is the fruit...

Well based on the Esau example that seems accurate...but still leaves a ? on the first part...'fall short of grace'.

Thanks for input

The larger context seems to be in line with chapter 6 and 10 in the sense of avoiding a loss of salvation.

12:14 Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: 15 looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled; 16 lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright. 17 For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears.

The passage on old vs new covenant relation to God follows, then :

25 See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, 26 whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven."
27 Now this, "Yet once more," indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. 29 For our God is a consuming fire.

The general idea is that living in sin leads us away from God and towards shipwreck.

I agree that falls short of grace depicts the "“fall back from,”

Then the Esau issue is given as an example...so in a sense I get what Piper was saying...that it is a false or devaluing of salvation that is the issue...

He said that was the root but I tend to see that as the fertile ground for the root of bitterness that grows and produces fruit...

And as Colonel states the larger context is Chapter 6 and 10

This would IMHO also fit Hebrews 10:21 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath accounted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath despised the Spirit of grace?

Do you see it stating, 'the root of bitterness is a disrespect of the gift of salvation' and that from that root comes fruit of varying sins and beliefs that would be the 'falling back from' grace?

I had seen this as a root planted due to some specific thing and allowing that root, say unforgiveness, to cause one to fall away...not that the root is a flawed respect for the value of the gift of salvation itself...

Here is the link

http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/...-of-bitterness

“Bitterness” is usually associated with anger and grudges. But is this what it means in Hebrews 12:15? “See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness, springing up, causes trouble, and by it many be defiled”? I don’t think so.
Let’s ask a few questions. First of all, does “root of bitterness” mean that the root is bitterness (like block of wood)? Or does it mean that the root grows up into a plant and bears the bitter fruit? Second, does “bitterness” in Hebrews 12:15 mean “festering anger,” or does it mean “poisonous and foul”? Third, where did this image of a “root of bitterness” come from?
Let’s start with the last question. Answer: it came from Deuteronomy 29:18. “Beware lest there be among you a man or woman or family or tribe, whose heart turns away this day from the Lord our God to go and serve the gods of those nations; lest there be among you a root bearing poisonous and bitter fruit.” This background also helps us answer the first two questions: the root is not itself bitterness but rather bears the fruit of bitterness. And the bitterness it bears is something poisonous. This bitter fruit may be festering anger, or it may be something else. The point seems to be that it is deadly.
The key question is, What is this root that causes deadly, bitter fruit to sprout in the church? The next verse in Deuteronomy 29 gives the surprising answer, but it fits perfectly with the book of Hebrews. Verse 18 ends: “…lest there be among you a root bearing poisonous and bitter fruit.” Then verse 19 begins by defining this root: “…one who, when he hears the words of this sworn covenant, blesses himself in his heart, saying, ‘I shall be safe, though I walk in the stubbornness of my heart.’ This would lead to the sweeping away of moist and dry alike.”
What then is the root that brings forth the bitter fruit? It is a person who has a wrong view of eternal security. He feels secure when he is not secure. He says, “I shall be safe [=secure], though I walk in the stubbornness of my heart.” He misunderstands the covenant God makes. He thinks that because he is part of the covenant people, he is secure from God’s judgment.

I think the biggest danger is that christians can actually 'fall short of the grace of God' which totally cuts across the lovey dovey messages of today that says God's grace covers everything and that our actions doesn't affect grace

It is a serious warning which we cannot dismiss

Originally Posted by Cardinal TT

I think the biggest danger is that christians can actually 'fall short of the grace of God' which totally cuts across the lovey dovey messages of today that says God's grace covers everything and that our actions doesn't affect grace

It is a serious warning which we cannot dismiss

That seems to agree with Piper's thinking, that the ROOT bitterness springs from is "The key question is, What is this root that causes deadly, bitter fruit to sprout in the church? The next verse in Deuteronomy 29 gives the surprising answer, but it fits perfectly with the book of Hebrews. Verse 18 ends: “…lest there be among you a root bearing poisonous and bitter fruit.” Then verse 19 begins by defining this root: “…one who, when he hears the words of this sworn covenant, blesses himself in his heart, saying, ‘I shall be safe, though I walk in the stubbornness of my heart.’ This would lead to the sweeping away of moist and dry alike.”

The point being the root is not some trauma or event that grows into a vine that produces bitter fruit?
OR
Is the root this false sense of security that grows into a vine producing bitter fruit?

I realize the result is essentially the same for a believer but this does not seem to be semantics.

Deuteronomy 29... 14*“It is not with you alone that I am making this covenant and this oath, 15*but with those [future Israelites] who are not here with us today, as well as with those who stand here with us today in the presence of the Lord our God 16*(for you know how we lived in the land of Egypt, and how we passed through the nations along the way; 17*and you have seen their detestable acts and their [repulsive] idols of wood and stone, [lifeless images] of silver and gold, which they had with them), 18*so that there will not be among you a man or woman, or family or tribe, whose heart turns away today from the Lord our God, to go and serve the [false] gods of these nations; so that there will not be among you a root [of idolatry] bearing poisonous fruit and wormwood (bitterness). 19*It will happen that when he (a renegade) hears the words of this oath, and he [c]imagines himself as blessed, saying, ‘I will have peace and safety even though I walk within the stubbornness of my heart [rejecting God and His law], in order that the watered land dwindles away along with the dry [destroying everything],’ 20*the Lord will not be willing to forgive him, but then the anger of the Lord and His [d]jealousy will burn against that man, and every curse which is written in this book will rest on him; the Lord will blot out his name from under heaven. 21*Then the Lord will single him out for disaster from all the tribes of Israel [making an example of him], according to all the curses of the covenant that are written in this Book of the Law.

The more I ponder this the more sure I am that Piper is right....the ROOT of bitterness is a departure from the Covenant...a disrespect for it...

because as he noted in vs 17, For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently and with tears...

What caused hesitation was the fact that spiritual and reation laws seemed challenged...everything produces after it's own kind so bitter vines and fruit have to come from a bitter root...
but the bitter root is NOT some trauma or event we nurse into a vine that entangles us even though that is the result...the fruit...

The root IS our response to the true covenant and that being noted in prior verses...willingness, even the desire, to have God chasten and correct and as vs 13 states, "and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be dislocated, but rather healed."

It is terribly sad that so many believe the root cannot be bitter..of course not all who do allow it to, but there is no doubt some do....compromising and selling their 'BIRTHRIGHT' because they hold a false understanding of THE COVENANT...

Bitterness and unforgiveness and hatred involve loss of relationship and are therefore effective catalysts of loss of relationship with God and shipwrecking of faith. That's why they are mentioned so often in that context.

Originally Posted by Colonel

Bitterness and unforgiveness and hatred involve loss of relationship and are therefore effective catalysts of loss of relationship with God and shipwrecking of faith. That's why they are mentioned so often in that context.

But that is the fruit...not the root according to Piper? I would say the relationship with God causes the relationship and hatred and unforgiveness....

I think this is relevant because we often may be trying to pick off the bad fruit and never getting to the root...IF the root is our flawed relationship with God and faulty understanding of covenant...