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Thread: Falling from grace

  1. #11
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quest View Post
    Nope....I don't view scripture as OSAS proof text since I do not believe there is any such thing...
    Whether you like it or not the proof texts you quote are common OSAS proof texts. I know this because I have debated OSAS through hundreds or thousands of posts during the last two decades. Where you differ from OSAS seems to be with the absolute worst case scenario which can in turn be applied exclusively to people who never did repent and certainly not to anyone who is offered any kind of hope in scripture. In my opinion "estranged from Christ" and "Christ is of no profit to you" is the strongest and most fundamental language that scripture uses about someone who is definitely not saved. I say that as someone who originally researched the (non-Calvinist) span from OSAS all the way to "loss of salvation by living in any kind of sin" without bias.

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  3. #12
    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quest View Post
    I also believe many Christians will stand before God amazed at who He lets in because they held fast to faith in Christ alone for their salvation...


    Does that mean Hitler will be in heaven if he held fast to faith in Christ alone while he slaughtered millions of people

  4. #13
    Super Moderator Quest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Whether you like it or not the proof texts you quote are common OSAS proof texts. I know this because I have debated OSAS through hundreds or thousands of posts during the last two decades. Where you differ from OSAS seems to be with the absolute worst case scenario which can in turn be applied exclusively to people who never did repent and certainly not to anyone who is offered any kind of hope in scripture. In my opinion "estranged from Christ" and "Christ is of no profit to you" is the strongest and most fundamental language that scripture uses about someone who is definitely not saved. I say that as someone who originally researched the (non-Calvinist) span from OSAS all the way to "loss of salvation by living in any kind of sin" without bias.
    I am not sure why I should care how OSAS folks interpret these passages?

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    Super Moderator Quest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    Anyone who enters heaven is saved so why would believers be amazed.....not sure what that has to do with the topic Colonel wanted discussed
    Judgements of others....the topic is being LOST...AND re-saved...so do YOU believe when someone backslides the Spirit departs and they die again and if they repent they are born again again?

  6. #15
    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quest View Post
    Judgements of others....the topic is being LOST...AND re-saved...so do YOU believe when someone backslides the Spirit departs and they die again and if they repent they are born again again?
    I changed my comment because I wasnt sure what you were trying to say

  7. #16
    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    First of all the word backslid may not describe every person who stops serving God

    If they backslid and rebelled and hardened their heart then the Holy Spirit will eventually depart and they need to be born again?

    There are many who departed into depravity and rejected God but years later they came back and went through born again conversion a second time

  8. #17
    Super Moderator Quest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    Does that mean Hitler will be in heaven if he held fast to faith in Christ alone while he slaughtered millions of people
    IF he did, yes....but Hitler, based on his fruit, was either never truly saved or had become reprobate....IMHO

  9. #18
    Super Moderator Quest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    First of all the word backslid may not describe every person who stops serving God

    If they backslid and rebelled and hardened their heart then the Holy Spirit will eventually depart and they need to be born again?

    There are many who departed into depravity and even anger towards God but years later they came back and went through born again conversion a second time
    Ah..so you do believe one can be born again again...I do not....I believe those YOU describe here were backslide but had not rejected Christ in their heart and God knows...these are smoldering flax...As was stated in Hebrews 6:6 to reach that point of rejection of Christ one will not be restored...

    What I see is that once one knows and experiences Christ and literally rejects Him a their savior and Lord, they are reprobate...there are those who become hurt, angry, even entangled in sin...who at the core of the heart of hearts do not literally cast Christ out...have the Spirit stop dealing with them and depart...and until they do they are still saved...by grace though faith...

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  11. #19
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quest View Post
    I am not sure why I should care how OSAS folks interpret these passages?
    It's the same way of thinking and dealing with scriptures as yours, that's why their proof texts fit your narrative.

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  13. #20
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quest View Post
    Judgements of others....the topic is being LOST...AND re-saved...so do YOU believe when someone backslides the Spirit departs and they die again and if they repent they are born again again?
    Quest, that is what most Pentecostal/Charismatics believe. Not necessarily in your circles, but at least in the Western world.

    Flesh -> born again and one spirit with the Lord -> the Spirit departs -> back to being flesh -> born again and one spirit with the Lord -> etc

    I'm merely describing what happens when the Spirit unifies with the person's spirit then departs then unifies with the person's spirit again and so on.

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