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Thread: God is love, is he ?

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    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    God is love, is he ?

    This is a post from a closed Shack thread but it's not about the book as such so I'm replying to it independently of that topic.

    (Victoryword) I have never read the book and not sure if I will anytime soon (or ever). hence I could not speak to it or its author. Universalism and ultimate reconciliation are definitely anti-biblical and false if that is what is being promoted (though I would not know.

    That being said, I strongly disagree with James De Young's statement as quoted above. God is primarily love (1 John 4) and every other attribute stems from His love therefore love does trump everything else. God does not stop becoming loving when He has to be just, holy, or righteous. He does not turn off His love in order to turn on His holiness. God is just, holy and righteous because He is first love.

    Eternal damnation is indeed a result of His justice but also His love. God satisfied the need for justice by His love when He died for every sinner. Through the redemptive work of Christ we now have the opportunity to know and love God despite our past sinful rebellion. God continues to plead with men to be reconciled to Him. This is love that is not absent of justice, righteousness or holiness. Justice has been satisfied through love.

    Yet, God's love will NOT force people to love Him. If people want to be without God for eternity and live independent of Him then in His love He allows them to have what they want - eternal separation. At the same time, eternal damnation of those who hate God protect eternally those who love Him. Imagine having satan, demons, and people who hate God in Heaven. Would it still be heaven? In the end, God's love gives everyone what they want. This is love.
    I don't think you can make a good case for "God is primarily love" other than that people want it to be that way and that it has become a convention among many Christians.

    If we look at the letter that that quote is from, it starts with :

    1 John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life—
    2 the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us—
    3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ.

    And ends with :

    1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
    21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

    The first passage continues with :

    1:5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.

    The NT authors talk a lot about life and light so as strong a case can be made that God is primarily either one of those things.

    Do they limit God's love as de Young said and which Victoryword objected to ? I don't think so. Rather they explain what God's love is and which makes it different to the love that human beings have for each other and which doesn't necessarily object to the sins of others at all.

    Human love can pity others and strengthen them on their course that is in line with and heading towards death. God's love always draws towards the life that he is.

    Human love can pity others and strengthen them on their course in and through darkness. God's love always draws towards the light that he is.

    What happens if and when people place themselves irrevocably in death and darkness ? Then God's love cannot and will not reach them because God doesn't compromise any of His essential attributes. He doesn't attempt to trump his other attributes so that his love can be modified until it is in sync with darkness and death.

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    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    I may add a few more fundamentals though they aren't found in 1 John.

    John 4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth

    Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

    Exod 3:14 And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And He said, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'

    In other words "God is". As in self-existance or substance.

    Jesus also says that he is "the way, the truth and the life".

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    Super Moderator Quest's Avatar
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    I believe God who is LOVE was on the cross voluntarily for ALL who will, even His enemies, and was there as love when He told Samuel to tell Saul to totally destroy the Amalekites.....I also believe there are many who can't reconcile that; therefore they choose to believe it's inaccurate, that God does take pleasure in judgments, or they choose to just convince themselves that God allowed that but did not order it...love must be seen in ALL of God's actions....and can only be seen within the relationship of walking with Him in the garden...and approaching Him from the perspective of faith that He is love and that He is good....then allowing Him to empower us to see that from the eyes of the Spirit and not carnal man...

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    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    I can recall seeking God at an early point in my Christian walk and feeling that if God had only been love and not equally light and uncompromisingly holy then there would be no point at all. The 80s song "who wants to live forever" would be true in the sarcastic sense, which is probably the sense intended.

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    Super Moderator Quest's Avatar
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    Boils down to wanting to really know HIM even if what we learn offends our flesh or our minds....

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    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quest View Post
    Boils down to wanting to really know HIM even if what we learn offends our flesh or our minds....
    God's love being defined as different to "the world's love just to infinite degree" may be offensive to the flesh.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    God's love being defined as different to "the world's love just to infinite degree" may be offensive to the flesh.
    Just one passage proves that...LOVE your enemies and do good to those who despitefully wrong you..if they take you garment give them your coat...quoting that to someone will almost always get a 'yea but' response.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quest View Post
    Just one passage proves that...LOVE your enemies and do good to those who despitefully wrong you..if they take you garment give them your coat...quoting that to someone will almost always get a 'yea but' response.....
    Actually that sounds like infinite love, a love that spills over all boundaries having to do with relation. Many people want God to be like that, where they can do anything they want and God is still required to issue his blessings and favor on them no matter what. That is not how God's love works.

    The love Jesus describes is one that seeks to establish relation, not one that continues to act like that throughout eternity without relation ever being established.

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