Thread: Really Old Books that Confirm the Permissive Sense of Isaiah 45:7

There are many interpretations of the verse.

1) God originally created evil
2) God is behind every bad thing that happens, due to original sin
3) The context of the verse is judgment on Israel for severe sin and it is active
4) Same as 3 but it is passive

The context demands either 3 or 4. If the allegation is that God never actively judges anyone for anything but rather lets the devil take care of that then how does that work with the following verses :

2 Thes 2:8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

Rev 14:9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

How is Satan going to torment someone in the presence of the holy angels and Jesus when he himself is in the lake of fire ?

2 Thes 2:8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

In what way is Satan connected to "the breath of the Lord's mouth" and "the brightness of His coming" ?

Originally Posted by victoryword

Do you believe that God personally torments people in the lake of fire?

I believe that the fire in the lake of fire is the same fire that caused the following reaction in the OT :

Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; Fearfulness has seized the hypocrites: “Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? Who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?”

And which corresponds to the breath of his mouth and brightness of his coming. None of which hurts the redeemed but it hurts the sinner when he faces it outside the medium of grace.

I do not believe that God casts Satan into a lake of fire where Satan will torment himself with that fire.

Revelation 14:10 He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

The above theme is very obviously borrowed from a scene where a criminal, possibly a traitor, would be presented before an ancient king and tortured in the presence of the king and his court as a form of punishment.

The fire and brimstone (which is sulfur) and the lake containing them are very obviously borrowed from observing the bottom of a volcano filled with lava containing sulfur that it sets on fire. The real question is what it's a metaphor for. John could have said "lake of fire" and omitted brimstone and the metaphor would have been clear enough but brimstone was used for purification at that time. The fire is purifying but with those cast into this fire there is nothing to purify, they are slag through and through.

Heb 12:28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. 29 For our God is a consuming fire.

It is a good idea to serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear, letting oneself be born again of the same fire so that the consuming fire doesn't end up tormenting one's sinful soul for eternity instead of filling one's redeemed soul with his presence and glory since it has been born of the same fire.

Originally Posted by Colonel

Revelation 14:10 He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

The above theme is very obviously borrowed from a scene where a criminal, possibly a traitor, would be presented before an ancient king and tortured in the presence of the king and his court as a form of punishment.

The fire and brimstone (which is sulfur) and the lake containing them are very obviously borrowed from observing the bottom of a volcano filled with lava containing sulfur that it sets on fire. The real question is what it's a metaphor for. John could have said "lake of fire" and omitted brimstone and the metaphor would have been clear enough but brimstone was used for purification at that time. The fire is purifying but with those cast into this fire there is nothing to purify, they are slag through and through.

Heb 12:28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. 29 For our God is a consuming fire.

It is a good idea to serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear, letting oneself be born again of the same fire so that the consuming fire doesn't end up tormenting one's sinful soul for eternity instead of filling one's redeemed soul with his presence and glory since it has been born of the same fire.

Not going to hijack here but this sounds really similar to what Mr. Young says in his book regarding Hell...

Originally Posted by Quest

Not going to hijack here but this sounds really similar to what Mr. Young says in his book regarding Hell...

As I didn't follow that thread much I'm not sure what your point is. Anyway, here is someone else who believed that the same power can either save or destroy :

""If we go out to meet God clothed in white, washed in the blood of the Lamb; if we go out, all making the same sound; if we go out to glorify God, God will honor all the noise.
It is not excitement. God comes down to acknowledge the praise. They pressed the button, and the power of God came down. That same power will either save or destroy us some day. The house was filled with the power and glory of the Lord."

That's from a sermon by Maria Woodworth-Etter. After God revealed himself to me as an all consuming fire in 1993 I have no illusions about what would happen to the unredeemed if his glory covered the Earth like the sea covers the ocean floor. I didn't study the topic of final judgment much until years later though.