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Thread: Did satan create evil?

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by victoryword View Post
    Based on your own definition of what it means to create, Satan definitely created. First sin is not "matter" and it was not in existence. There was no disobedience in existence. Satan brought sin into existence through his rebellion. Therefore, Satan created evil.

    Now, we can play this semantics game all day long if you like.
    Your the one playing semantics....By my definition evil is not CREATED...it is merely righteousness perverted...twisted...

    But lets just say he CREATED it to get that out of the way...did his creating EVIL CAUSE man to sin? No....is he to blame for the fall of man? no...he participated through temptation but what does the bible say..we sin when we are led astray by what...Satan? or OUR OWN lusts?

    Had Adam refused satan's 'creation' it would have not cause any calamity or chaos in the earth...Adam had authority...dominion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by victoryword View Post
    Then it seems that you and I are not reading the same Bible. God's Word gives Satan just as much responsibility for the evil conditions that exist in this world as he does man.
    Romans 5:12-14
    12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
    13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
    14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

    Heb. 2:14
    14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
    15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

    Furthermore, the Bible is very clear that unsaved men are under Satan's sway and control. I gave you a few references but there are much more, such as the following:
    1 John 5:19 (NKJV)
    19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.

    Hence, if Young's theodicy totally excludes the devil from the equation then it is an incomplete understanding of the problem of evil. There has to be more behind Hitler's slaughter of six million Jews, the intense persecution and martyring of Christians around the world in Muslim and communist countries, and even the evil behind the militant gay and abortion agendas than just simply men and women making choices for evil.

    When you read Revelation 20 and see that there is no lasting peace on earth until Satan is bound for 1000 years and then rebellion only starts again after he is released, then there is something more to evil than just man's choice alone.
    Absolutely none of those blame Satan for Adam's choice which caused the FALL of man...

  3. #13
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    Perversion: the alteration of something from its original course, meaning, or state to a distortion or corruption of what was first intended: "all great evil is the perversion of a good"

    The problem here is the Question is flawed...Evil is not a creation....it is merely a perversion. There is no reason to try to force that into a false narrative about CREATION.

    God created ALL things..Satan perveted..

  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Quest View Post
    Your the one playing semantics....By my definition evil is not CREATED...it is merely righteousness perverted...twisted...

    But lets just say he CREATED it to get that out of the way...did his creating EVIL CAUSE man to sin? No....is he to blame for the fall of man? no...he participated through temptation but what does the bible say..we sin when we are led astray by what...Satan? or OUR OWN lusts?

    Had Adam refused satan's 'creation' it would have not cause any calamity or chaos in the earth...Adam had authority...dominion.
    Well, since righteousness wasn't "perverted" or "twisted" before and Satan was the first to do it then he brought it into existence. Hence, CREATION!

    Now Quest, it is not nice to build strawmen. I never said that Satan "caused" man to sin. I have noted in one of my posts above that man has the freedom to choose. However, the Bible certainly does blame Satan for the sin of man. The Bible blames him for tempting man, for deceiving him, for blinding him, and, some respects, controlling him. If the Bible did NOT blame Satan for man's sin then why is he being punished for the fall of man (Gen. 3:13-14)?

    If Satan's place in world's evil is diminished then why is it that the redemptive work of Christ specifically targets Satan and his works (1 John 3:8; Heb. 2:14-15; Col. 2:14-16)?

    Now, we agree that Adam could have and should have refused Satan. But since he accepted it then Adam, though culpable for his actions, is not alone. Satan says that Adam gave it all to him and he had the right to give it to whoever he wanted to (Luke 4). Therefore, any teaching on the subject of evil that diminishes Satan's role is incomplete and will offer no lasting solutions.
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  6. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Quest View Post
    Perversion: the alteration of something from its original course, meaning, or state to a distortion or corruption of what was first intended: "all great evil is the perversion of a good"

    The problem here is the Question is flawed...Evil is not a creation....it is merely a perversion. There is no reason to try to force that into a false narrative about CREATION.

    God created ALL things..Satan perveted..
    here is the definition of "creation" from Dictionary.com:

    1. to cause to come into being, as something unique that would not naturally evolve or that is not made by ordinary processes.

    2. to evolve from one's own thought or imagination, as a work of art or an invention.

    5. to be the cause or occasion of; give rise to:
    The announcement created confusion.

    6. to cause to happen; bring about; arrange, as by intention or design:
    to create a revolution; to create an opportunity to ask for a raise.
    Mmmmmmmm, by the normal definition of "create" I would say that Satan "created" evil. There was no evil in existence before him, he perverted the ways of God, thus bringing the thing called evil into existence.
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    Quote Originally Posted by victoryword View Post
    Well, since righteousness wasn't "perverted" or "twisted" before and Satan was the first to do it then he brought it into existence. Hence, CREATION!

    Now Quest, it is not nice to build strawmen. I never said that Satan "caused" man to sin. I have noted in one of my posts above that man has the freedom to choose. However, the Bible certainly does blame Satan for the sin of man. The Bible blames him for tempting man, for deceiving him, for blinding him, and, some respects, controlling him. If the Bible did NOT blame Satan for man's sin then why is he being punished for the fall of man (Gen. 3:13-14)?

    If Satan's place in world's evil is diminished then why is it that the redemptive work of Christ specifically targets Satan and his works (1 John 3:8; Heb. 2:14-15; Col. 2:14-16)?

    Now, we agree that Adam could have and should have refused Satan. But since he accepted it then Adam, though culpable for his actions, is not alone. Satan says that Adam gave it all to him and he had the right to give it to whoever he wanted to (Luke 4). Therefore, any teaching on the subject of evil that diminishes Satan's role is incomplete and will offer no lasting solutions.
    You did not read the book so let me set this up...a believer comes to God and says 'Why Lord did you allow this tragedy? Does God respond, no it's Satan's fault? or does He respond with, this is the result of the fall?
    Or they ask, God why don't You prevent these tragedies? God responds, I do not usurp man's will.

    Would you agree?

    THAT was the topic of Val's response...so is the above true or false?

    In that context, If true, why is there a need to emphasize Satan's role? Especially since he would not even be a player in the game without man?

    I believe in Satan and that he is using people to perpetrate evil, and that sin perpetrated by man is producing death and destruction ad disease....

    So maybe you are just giving Satan more credit than I am...apart from deceiving and tempting us, what do you think SATAN actually DOES?

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    Quote Originally Posted by victoryword View Post
    here is the definition of "creation" from Dictionary.com:



    Mmmmmmmm, by the normal definition of "create" I would say that Satan "created" evil. There was no evil in existence before him, he perverted the ways of God, thus bringing the thing called evil into existence.
    Yes, you can as long as it is understood it is merely the twisting of what already exists...I know it seems a minor point but again he perverted what already existed...
    It is ok to use the word create as long as it is in the context of perversion, not making something from nothing as you imply. Evil is not a NEW thing...it is a perversion of an existing thing...

  10. #18
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    Genesis 3:13-14New King James Version (NKJV)

    13 And the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”

    The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”

    14 So the Lord God said to the serpent:


    “Because you have done this,
    You are cursed more than all cattle,
    And more than every beast of the field;
    On your belly you shall go,
    And you shall eat dust
    All the days of your life.

    I don't read that Satan is being punished for the fall of man...I read that Satan is being punished for being the source of deception to the woman.

    Did mankind come under condemnation when She sinned or when Adam did?

    I don't mean to get too far out there or start a rabbit trail here but it seems a presumption that Satan is punished for the fall of man.

    The woman said, The serpent deceived me, and I ate.

  11. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Quest View Post
    You did not read the book so let me set this up...a believer comes to God and says 'Why Lord did you allow this tragedy? Does God respond, no it's Satan's fault? or does He respond with, this is the result of the fall?
    Or they ask, God why don't You prevent these tragedies? God responds, I do not usurp man's will.

    Would you agree?
    I would agree that freedom of the will is an important factor, and that man's fall plays a significant rle in why evil is in the world (Rom. 5:12), but I do not agree that God would leave Satan and demons out of the discussion when answering a "why" question on evil.

    Matt. 13:24-28
    24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
    25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
    26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
    27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
    28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

    In verse 39 Jesus says, "The enemy that sowed them is the devil." So yes, in a sense God would say, "no it's Satan's fault." Many who have been allowed to travel in the spirit realm or were given visions of the spirit realm were allowed to see spirits of perversion and other ways that evil spirits were working in the world. Along with Scripture, God has attempted to show His church that demonic forces are ruling the darkness in this world. Our warfare is not against flesh and blood but against the rulers of this dark age (Eph. 6:10-18).

    Quote Originally Posted by Quest View Post
    THAT was the topic of Val's response...so is the above true or false?

    In that context, If true, why is there a need to emphasize Satan's role? Especially since he would not even be a player in the game without man?

    I believe in Satan and that he is using people to perpetrate evil, and that sin perpetrated by man is producing death and destruction ad disease....

    So maybe you are just giving Satan more credit than I am...apart from deceiving and tempting us, what do you think SATAN actually DOES?
    There is a need to emphasize Satan's role because the Bible emphasizes Satan's role. I have given you a few Bible references for this but there are more. The evils that Paul suffered that he describes in 2 Cor. 11 are said to have been done by a "messenger of Satan" (2 Cor. 12). The afflictions that Christians suffer in this world are because the devil walks about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour (1 Pet. 5:8-10). Paul said that the reason he could not visit the Thessalonians was because Satan hindered him (1 Thessalonians 2:18). The reason that Jesus gave for a woman being in bondage to sickness was because Satan kept her bound (Luke 13:16). Peter said that Jesus primary purpose on earth was to heal all who were oppressed of the devil (Acts 10:38). Look at the gospels and see how often Jesus casted out devils, crediting them for the evil that men suffered.

    These are just for starters. We can go into Job, David's temptation, Adam and Eve, Cain, Simon the sorcerer and many other areas. Leaving Satan out of any response to the problem of evil is simply not a Biblical response to evil.
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  13. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Quest View Post
    Yes, you can as long as it is understood it is merely the twisting of what already exists...I know it seems a minor point but again he perverted what already existed...
    It is ok to use the word create as long as it is in the context of perversion, not making something from nothing as you imply. Evil is not a NEW thing...it is a perversion of an existing thing...
    Then let me say it again. The twisting/perversion and evil that came as a result of the twisting and perversion was not in existence until a creature of his on free-will, Lucifer, brought it about. Hence, by your own definition of "creation" he created evil.
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