Thread: Jesus Destroys the "T" in TULIP

This was written to the church in Sardis, not the unsaved.

Originally Posted by victoryword

Here is a Scripture that proves that "Total Depravity" is an absolute false teaching:

Revelation 3:1-3
1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and ART DEAD.
2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and REPENT. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Here Jesus tells us that a DEAD church is able, of their own free-will, to REPENT. Calvinists often claim that since the sinner is considered "dead" then they are unable to respond to God. Jesus says something totally different. Therefore, the Calvinist's teaching of total depravity is utterly false based on the plain statement of Jesus.

Part of the idea with total depravity is that the sinner is unable to repent unless the Holy Spirit illuminates and draws him first. The Calvinist takes that one step further and claims that the sinner must be regenerated first and then he cannot resist the drawing, which makes no sense in relation to that verse. But the Holy Spirit would take the scripture being read to the backslidden in Sardis and then illuminate them and draw them based on it.

Originally Posted by Colonel

The Calvinist takes that one step further and claims that the sinner must be regenerated first.

You mean like what the Holy Spirit said via the Apostle Paul in Ephesians 2?

But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

You are assuming that someone who is spiritually dead cannot do anything at all that would lead God to ressurect him spiritually. Jesus said otherwise :

John 5:24*“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.*25*Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.

Notice that the first hear is in the middle voice but the last hear is in the active voice, meaning they are listening.
The dead hear the voice of the Son while they are still dead and only upon listening do they come alive.

Originally Posted by FunFromOz

You mean like what the Holy Spirit said via the Apostle Paul in Ephesians 2?

But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Originally Posted by FunFromOz

They "have a name that (they) are alive, but (are) are dead". They are not "dead in (their) trespasses and sins" as per Ephesians 2 or "But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved (them), even when (they) were dead in (their) transgressions, made (them) alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)".

You probably won't like these quotes VW:

Charles Spurgeon called the doctrine of Sovereign Grace "the most hated of all Christian doctrines" and "the most humbling and pride crushing of all biblical doctrines."

On the Doctrine of Sovereign Grace:

"Now comes the really amazing part. What is offered to the world, to everyone who hears the gospel, is NOT a love or saving achievement designed for all and therefore especially for NO ONE; but rather, what is offered is the absolute fullness of all that Christ achieved for his ELECT."

You offer no explanation for what dead is supposed to mean and the natural reading is spiritually dead since they are still physically alive.

A Calvinist might say that a spiritually dead person can make carnal choices but not spiritual ones. The problem with that is that the spiritually dead were able to hear and listen to the voice of the Son of God and only after that did they become alive. Which demonstrates that the voice of the Son of God, which goes forth through the illuminating power of the Spirit, is able to make the dead hear and is able to enable them to respond. The Calvinist simply finds himself denying God's ability to do this.