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Thread: Do ALL THINGS Work Together For Good ? Jack Hayford

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    Do ALL THINGS Work Together For Good ? Jack Hayford

    The tragedy with Romans 8:28 is the number of people that take it as a philosophical statement and say, `Well, you know, all things work together for good.' And it was never meant as a stand-alone verse. I've said -- and people look at you like you denied the virgin birth or something -- that Romans 8:28 isn't true, unless you link it with the preceding two verses. And it's true of other portions of the Bible if you isolate it from its context.

    Romans 8:26 and 27 says, `We don't know how to pray in circumstances that transcend us. But the Holy Spirit will help us with prayers, with groanings that transcend our capacity.' (In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. Romans 8:26, NIV)

    He'll come alongside. He will take hold together with, literally, the Greek verb says that full partnership where he bears the burden and energizes the prayer. (And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for these saints in accordance with God's will. Romans 8:27, NIV)

    Oftentimes He gives direction and discernment as to how we ought to pray. And then, when we let the Holy Spirit help us in prayer, sometimes with the understanding, sometimes praying in the Spirit, that then, the Bible says, all things will work together for good. But they do not automatically just work out. That's another part of that thing. We want to escape responsibility. Say, `Well, you know, God will take care of it. I'll do my best and, you know, just cross my heart and hope to live.'

    But the Lord says, `I want to you pray, and when it's beyond you, my Holy Spirit will help you.' Dr. Jack Hayford

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  3. #2
    Administrator fuego's Avatar
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    Thank you Jack (and LH )

    Taught it basically like that myself for years. Didn't realize he taught it that way. The verse doesn't exist in a vacuum but is always quoted like it does. There is NO scripture in the NT taken in context that says everything that happens to us automatically works for our good. And all one has to do is take a look at things that happen to Christians and see it isn't so.

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  5. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by fuego View Post
    all one has to do is take a look at things that happen to Christians and see it isn't so.
    Not to argue against your premise, but to say that don't you have to take into accoun t the future (it may not appear to have "worked for good" yet) and what could have happened (extreme e.g. being fired for no apparent reason from a job in the Twin Towers would have not looked good till two weeks later when they fell down)

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    Administrator fuego's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    Not to argue against your premise, but to say that don't you have to take into accoun t the future (it may not appear to have "worked for good" yet) and what could have happened (extreme e.g. being fired for no apparent reason from a job in the Twin Towers would have not looked good till two weeks later when they fell down)
    Well then you have to take into consideration the Christians in the building that didn't get fired or called off work. How did that work for their good? It didn't other than they did go to heaven before their time.

    But the point is, what Jack says about the context of that scripture is indisputable. It has to be taken in context. It doesn't exist on the page by itself. And 99.99999% of the time it's quoted as if it is.

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  8. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by LionHeart View Post
    I've said ... that Romans 8:28 isn't true, unless you link it with the preceding two verses. And it's true of other portions of the Bible if you isolate it from its context.
    Looked this up (again) for the fun of it and this is what I find:

    Do ALL THINGS Work Together For Good ? Jack Hayford-capture-jpg

    "Funnily" the NASB (and NIV and RSV and Phillips and MEV) put v28 in a paragraph with the following v29-30 not the preceeding v26-27 [the MSG does it that way but you don't go there for theology, and the NLT puts all v26-30 in a single paragraph] but the point being why are you saying you have to take verses "in context" yet link V28 to the previous verses not the following verses as is done in major translations?

  9. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by fuego View Post
    It didn't other than they did go to heaven before their time.
    Again we don't know what would have happened if they'd lived. What if they were still of child bearing age? Consider the affect on the world of a single child; Ishmael.

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    Administrator fuego's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    Looked this up (again) for the fun of it and this is what I find:

    Do ALL THINGS Work Together For Good ? Jack Hayford-capture-jpg

    "Funnily" the NASB (and NIV and RSV and Phillips and MEV) put v28 in a paragraph with the following v29-30 not the preceeding v26-27 [the MSG does it that way but you don't go there for theology, and the NLT puts all v26-30 in a single paragraph] but the point being why are you saying you have to take verses "in context" yet link V28 to the previous verses not the following verses as is done in major translations?
    They're just paragraphing their pre-determined theology. There is no puncuation or paragraphs in the original Greek. You can't ignore what comes before it. Not to mention just grammatically, the "And" verse 28 starts with connects it with the verses before. You don't start the beginning of a discourse with 'and'. It's a conjunction that connects verse 28 to what comes before it. It CANNOT be left out in interpreting the meaning.

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  12. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by fuego View Post
    They're just paragraphing their pre-determined theology. There is no puncuation or paragraphs in the original Greek. You can't ignore what comes before it. Not to mention just grammatically, the "And" verse 28 starts with connects it with the verses before. You don't start the beginning of a discourse with 'and'. It's a conjunction that connects verse 28 to what comes before it. It CANNOT be left out in interpreting the meaning.
    "and" Greek "de", most often translated "but", also "now", "then" and "also".

    "their pre-determined theology" ,

    Well then one shouldn't ignore what comes after it also, especially the "for",
    "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God ... for whom he did foreknow ... he also glorified"

    Those who love God will eventually be glorified, that's sounds "good" to me, and so what happens in our lives before that is working towards that isn't it?

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    Administrator fuego's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    "and" Greek "de", most often translated "but", also "now", "then" and "also".
    All of which tie it to what came before it. :)

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  15. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by fuego View Post
    They're just paragraphing their pre-determined theology.
    Interesting that.

    One of the lessons in the Search for Life course that I recently did is "The Need to be Liked". Because we live in a fallen world some of us find that being liked or loved seems to be conditional on what we do; e.g. some kids get the impression that unless they get high grades they're not loved, and I know a man of 72 who appears to be still doing things just to get his Mum to say he's acceptable to her.

    This should not be a "truth" but often if it is "true" to us we'll project the same thing on God, thinking we have to do things for God to love us. And so to Rom 8:28.

    The idea coming from putting v26-27 with v28, that "sometimes praying in the Spirit, that then, the Bible says, all things will work together for good. But they do not automatically just work out" has with it the idea that we have to DO something to get V28 to apply to us and if we don't things won't always work out for our good.

    Putting v28 with V29-30 on the other hand says that things will work out for good for us simply because we are God's kids and He loves us.

    Two very different "pre-determined" theologies eh?

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