And sometimes we ask Him to do things that are contrary to the stated choises of the people we're praying for.Originally Posted by Bookman
And sometimes we ask Him to do things that are contrary to the stated choises of the people we're praying for.
To me the above sounds like nothing more than theistic fatalism and a call to mentally align oneself with the idea that one's God given fate works out for the good.
Sorry back again. Can't help myself; oh!, and that's my choise.
For a start if Mr Cox attacks a brother's beliefs that says heaps doesn't it. Discuss, debate, but attack?
Anyway why would one go Total Depravity -> Total Inability -> no merit in the individual?
Perhaps it's because the person attacking is most likely not in a mindset where they want to learn anything so the person being attacked is expressing the same thing in simpler and simpler words hoping that something will sink through.
Paul explains in Romans that "both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; as it is written,
"There is none righteous, not even one;
There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks for God;
All have turned aside, together they have become useless;
There is none who does good,
There is not even one."
"Their throat is an open grave,
With their tongues they keep deceiving,"
"The poison of asps is under their lips";
"Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness";"
Pretty unpleasant description of humanity isn't it? Never told someone their "throat is an open grave" myself, but that applies to even "nice" people, and of these "nice" people Paul says "There is none who seeks for God"
So what's God gotta do? Paul explains in Ephesians "But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him". Yep, when we were dead (and dead men not only tell no tales, they do absolutely nothing but stink), when we were dead God because of His mercy made us alive as an act of His grace.
Then we understood and believed (as Jesus said - "unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God" - and Jesus doesn't lie). Before that we were totally depraved, were totally unable to believe, there was nothing of any good in us.
Is that really all that hard to understand?
Oh, and then once saved so many people now say (because they're taught this way) "I did that, God could not touch me if I hadn't of let Him, God [who happened to create me and everything else out of nothing as an act of His will for His purposes] had no authority over me till I gave it to Him".
As if!
Bookie you can do whatever you want with the verse but it's true meaning is connected to the other verses.
I believe that little children can seek God and find Him though they are under the age of accountability. Before that age, they go to Heaven if they die. When "sin revives" I die. That is when we are cognizant of our own actions and we need redemption for them.
Todd White talks about feeling lead to give $500 in an offering when they didnt really have that kind of money to give and his wife objected but Todd said that "Jesus has us". Later someone stuck an envelope in his pocket and it contained a check for $10,000. God honored his faith. But what if no money had showed up and they had barely gotten by ? Invoke "God's sovereignty" ? Admit a lack of faith instead ? It seems to me that the invoking of "God's sovereignty" is what people do when their faith isnt really there and they want a substitute that will make them feel better, one that works no matter what - as long as one is able to stomach the resulting relationship to God.
Or God in His mercy finds them and as an act of grace makes them alive ....
Or God in His mercy finds them and as an act of grace makes them alive ....
The RCC would love you. They think Mary (whom they call Queen of the Heavens - aka Jeremiah 7:18) was born sinless and remained that way because the idea of having Jesus develop in the body of someone who sinned is too much for them. (Then as death is the result of sin they had to have her go body and soul into heaven).
Paul wrote to the Romans that "through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners"; not "through each man's disobedience each man is made a sinner".
Then children being sinful or being born evil must go to hell if they die? You are in agreement with RC because they say if they are not Baptized they are lost.
The same way, little children arent able to sin from the heart until after they are capable of believing in Jesus.
As I said before (which I guessed you missed):
Or God in His mercy finds them and as an act of grace makes them alive ....
Speaking of the RC they have holy days of obligation on which people must attend mass under pain of mortal sin (which in RC theology sends you straight to hell). Thing is there are 10 but "the conference of bishops can suppress some of the holy days of obligation or transfer them to a Sunday". Hong Kong only has one, Christmas. The United States, by contrast, has a fairly robust eight holy days of obligation, though two to three have been transferred to Sundays (depending on where you live).
So two Americans can die on the same day neither of them attending mass but only one of them has committed a mortal sin and it's based on where he lived. And God has to take this into account when they die when working out where to send them. Oh, and if a guy who lived in the "sin" state was in Hong Kong for a holiday but died he'd be OK too.
Sound a bit silly? You lived in Texas on that day so you go to hell. Great!
My theology of salvation has God treating everyone, every single person, the same way. God chose before the foundation of the world all who would be saved (Eph 1:4) and they all are, young or old, fat or thin, black or white, smart or dumb.
Here's a flowchart, basically a straight line.
Here's a RC salvation flowchart. Maybe a bit more complicated than yours but I hope you get the point.
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