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Thread: Hell's Population Clock

  1. #21
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    The koiné Greek word for "hell" in Rev 20:13-14 is haides (hah'-dace) which doesn't eo ipso indicate a place of fiery suffering. It's primary meaning is the netherworld, where, at one time, every deceased person went regardless of their age and regardless of their goodness or their badness. Even Christ went there (Psalm 16:10 & Acts 2:23-32) and he was a good person.

    According to Luke 16:19-31, haides is (or was) divided into two sections: one for good people and one for bad people. The section designated for good people was (or is) quite pleasant. (Luke 23:43).

    The reason haides is slated for demolition is simply because there will be no need for it in the future. Its bad people will be transferred to the lake of fire, and its good people to a new cosmos and a new earth.

    Pop Clock Update: 57 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 3,172,164 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since July 25, 2015.

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    FresnoJoe (09-26-2015)

  3. #22
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    A forgiven sinner is still sinful, and they'll go right on sinning same as before they were forgiven unless they undergo a re-design because human nature is intrinsically bad.

    †. Gen 6:5 . .Yhvh saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time.

    †. Gen 8:21 . . Man's thoughts and actions are bent toward evil from childhood.

    †. Jer 13:23 . . Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Then may you also do good who are accustomed to do evil.

    †. Eph 2:3 . .We were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

    Pop Clock Update: 60 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 3,339,120 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since July 25, 2015.

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    FresnoJoe (09-26-2015)

  5. #23
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    Christianity is a lethal religion. It quite literally, in some supernatural way that I don't quite understand, puts Christ's followers to death.

    †. Rom 6:3 . . Do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?

    †. Rom 6:6 . . Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him

    †. Gal 2:20 . . I am crucified with Christ

    †. Col 3:3 . . For you died when Christ died

    What's so good about being dead? Well; one of the good parts is: according to Rom 7:1-4 dead people are no longer under the jurisdiction of the Ten Commandments.

    †. Rom 4:15 . . Law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.

    †. Rom 5:13 . . Sin is not imputed when there is no law.

    Pop Clock Update: 63 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 3,506,076 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since July 25, 2015.

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  7. #24
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    The first thing that most of us think of when we hear the word "hell" is everlasting torture; and that may be. But the reservoir of burning sulfur in the book of Revelation is actually not so much a rack as it is a gallows. The reservoir is primarily depicted as an instrument for carrying out death sentences rather than life sentences.

    A death sentence-- although a sentence with lasting effects --isn't perpetual; it's momentary. In other words: criminals are subjected to execution only long enough to end their lives. The primary reason we call the second death "eternal" is because it's permanent; viz: according to Dan 12:2 and John 5:28-29 there's only one resurrection allotted per person. Therefore nobody is coming back from the second death because they will have used up their one resurrection in order to face justice at the Great White Throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15.

    Pop Clock Update: 66 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 3,673,032 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since July 25, 2015.

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    FresnoJoe (09-29-2015)

  9. #25
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    COMMON ATTITUDE: I'm special; God understands me and He knows I'm only human. Although God probably may not let others off; I'm sure He will make an exception for me because I'm not like other people; I'm different.

    RESPONSE: Unfortunately, the Bible's God can't do that. If He were to make exceptions, God would be neither equitable, nor honest-- and worse, it would go against His grain, compromise His integrity, sin against His conscience; and cause Him to lose the world's respect. No, God doesn't grade on a curve: everyone is treated equally in God's courtroom. In a system of divine absolutes; there is neither a curve nor an exception: nobody gets any favors, and nobody is special.

    †. Deut 10:17 . . Yhvh shows no partiality and accepts no bribes.

    †. Acts 10:34 . .Then Peter began to speak: I now realize how true it is that God is impartial.

    †. Rom 2:5-11 . . For there is coming a day of judgment when God, the just judge of all the world, will judge all people according to what they have done. He will give eternal life to those who persist in doing what is good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers.

    . . . But he will pour out his anger and wrath on those who live for themselves, who refuse to obey the truth; and practice evil deeds. There will be anguish and calamity for everyone who practices evil-- for the Jew first and also for the Gentile. But there will be glory and honor and peace from God for all practice good --for the Jew first and also for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.

    Pop Clock Update: 69 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 3,839,988 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since July 25, 2015.

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  11. #26
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    Q: doesn't the Bible say that God's mercy endures forever as per Ps 100:5, Ps 106:1, Ps 107:1, and Ps 118:1, et al?

    A: God's mercy never wears out; but His patience sometimes wears thin. Good examples of that are the people swept away by the hand of God in the Flood, and those burned to death by the hand of God in Sodom and Gomorrah; and the firstborn of man and beast slain by the hand of God on Passover night in Egypt.

    It's possible to push God too far. For example:

    †. Hos 4:17 . . Ephraim is joined to idols; let him alone.

    In other words: God instructed the prophet Hosea not to bother preaching in Ephraim. They were too far gone.

    Pop Clock Update: 72 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 4,006,944 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since July 25, 2015.

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  12. #27
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    Note the grammatical tense of the "have" verb in Christ's statement. It's present tense rather than future, indicating that people who listen to his message, and believe in God, have eternal life right now-- no delay and no waiting period.

    †. John 5:24 . . I assure you: those who listen to my message, and believe in God who sent me, have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.

    Since John 5:24 is an element of the gospel; then those who refuse to believe Christ's statement is true, are already destined for hell-- no delay, and no waiting period.

    †. John 3:18 . .Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever disbelieves stands condemned already

    FYI: Eternal life is a quality of life that's impervious to time, decay, death, and the aging process. Therefore; believers with eternal life, and thus already passed from death into life; are impervious to the wages of sin.

    †.
    Rom 6:23 . .The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life.

    Pop Clock Update: 75 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 4,173,900 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since July 25, 2015.

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  13. #28
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    †. Jonah 4:9-11 . . God said to Jonah: Do you have a right to be angry about the vine? I do; he said. I am angry enough to die. But the Lord said: You have been concerned about this vine, though you did not tend it or make it grow. It sprang up overnight and died overnight. But Nineveh has more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left, and many cattle as well. Should I not be concerned about that great city?

    Had not the adults of Nineveh repented at Jonah's preaching, 120,000 small children would have died through no fault of their own. They would have been collateral damage had God lowered the boom on their parents. Just exactly how the hand of God would have destroyed the glory of Nineveh isn't stated in Jonah's prophecy; but in Nahum's prophecy it was by means of war and conquest.

    Just exactly how God is able to engineer such things is a bit of a mystery; but does make one wonder where else this terrifying work of His goes on. Did God somehow have a hand in the American civil war, and the first and second world wars, and the Holocaust, and in Korea and Vietnam, and in the so-called Arab Spring, and in the pandemics, the ethnic cleansings, ISIS, the housing bubble, and the genocides of the last century, and in natural events like mighty earthquakes, tsunamis, and super storms? I really have to wonder sometimes because Jonah's God is still out there somewhere.

    Pop Clock Update: 78 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 4,340,856 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since July 25, 2015.

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  14. #29
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    The ordeal that Christ endured on the cross was so brief that it looks like child's play in comparison to the misery of souls in hell. His suffering barely lasted six hours (cf. Mark 15:25, Matt 27:46-50) not even one whole day. People in hell go day, after day, after day, after day, after day, infinitum.

    Q: But if Christ suffered only six hours, how can he possibly atone for people facing an eternity in hell?

    A: It wasn't his torture that atoned for humanity's sins; it was the loss of his life that did the trick. Christ didn't have to go to the flames himself in order to rescue people from flames; no, he only had to die in accordance with the law of sin and death.

    †. Rom 6:23 . .The wages of sin is death

    Individual human lives are of such low value that the most that anybody could hope to die for is just one sin. In most cases; that leaves a pretty large balance to atone for. In contrast; the value of the life of God's son is such that his death can atone for an infinite number of everybody's sins.

    †. 1Pet 1:18-20 . . For you know that God paid a ransom to save you from the empty life you inherited from your ancestors. And the ransom he paid was not mere gold or silver. He paid for you with the precious lifeblood of Christ, the sinless, spotless Lamb of God.

    Peter called the blood of Christ two things: a ransom and precious, meaning it's like rare jewels and metals; very pricey. Nobody else's life is nearly as valuable as Christ's life. Peter would never call regular human life rare and pricey. Ordinary human lives are wholesale: they're cheap as the grass (Isa 40:6-7, 1Pet 1:24) just a dime a dozen and quite useless for redemption purposes.

    Christ's life is the only life God will accept for multiple sins: and the alternative is infinite punishment because no amount of limited punishment can ever equal the value of Christ's blood because not only is a life like Christ's rare, but his is the only one like it in existence. (cf. Rom 3:9-20, Heb 4:15, 1Pet 2:22, 1John 3:9)

    Serial sinners are up a creek with no paddle because they have but two lives to forfeit for sin-- the life they have now, and the one they'll have later at their resurrection; but unfortunately, one of those lives is ear-marked for Adam's sin so they can't use it to atone for any of their own sins. And when they're resurrected to stand trial at the Great White Throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15; that'll be their last life because according to Dan 12:2 and John 5:28-29 there's only one resurrection allotted per person. And since the Bible's ratio is one life per one sin, then serial sinners will come up short and never have sufficient lives to atone for a lifetime's accumulation of sins.

    Q: You say absolute justice for sins can't be satisfied with torture. Is hell thus inadequate justice or overdone justice?

    A: The dungeons of hell can be compared to a debtor's prison.

    †. Matt 5:25-26 . .Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

    The reason that hell is a debtor's prison is because the only payment for one's sins that God will accept is death. Well; it's death for each sin. So if somebody has say, 200 sins to answer for, they'll only be able to pay for one because according to Dan 12:2 & John 5:28-29 there is but one resurrection allotted per person; not 200. In that sense; hell is insufficient justice.

    If absolute justice could be satisfied with torture, then hell's inmates could look forward to a release date. But alas; such isn't to happen because the only "coinage" the Bible's God is in a position to accept in lieu of their own lives is His son's life.

    Bottom line: Christ's crucifixion is the final option. Those who refuse to take advantage of it, will cross over to the other side in poverty; with literally no way in hell to pay their debts to God; thus they'll be stuck there.

    Pop Clock Update: 81 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 4,507,812 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since July 25, 2015.

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  15. #30
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    Far from being immortal, the natural-born human soul is quite susceptible to termination.

    †. Matt 10:28 . . Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

    The koiné Greek word for "destroy" in that passage is apollumi (ap-ol'-loo-mee) which is a bit ambiguous. It can mean not only to ruin beyond repair, but also to kill; for example:

    Matt 2:13
    Matt 12:14
    Matt 26:52
    Matt 27:20
    Mark 9:22
    Lk 6:9
    Lk 11:51
    Lk 15:17
    Lk 17:27
    John 10:28
    John 18:14
    1Cor 10:9-10
    2Pet 3:6
    Jude 1:5

    Are dead human souls sentient?

    Well; I've been with dead human bodies so I know for myself that dead human bodies are not sentient. But I have never been with a dead human soul so I have no personal experience to draw upon in that connection.

    However, human life consists of more than only a body and a soul. According to 1Ths 5:23, Heb 4:12, Heb 12:23, and 1Pet 3:18-20; human life also consists of spirit.

    Apparently spirit cannot be destroyed by the fires of hell. I know that's true because the Devil is spirit, and according to Rev 20:10; he will be incarcerated in the reservoir of flaming sulfur, not to die, but so suffer-- forever. Quite a number of people are destined for that very same fate.

    †. Matt 25:41 . . He will also say to those on the left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

    The reverse logic of the jingle below is amusing.

    "Guns don't kill people: People kill people."

    It says though a gun is potentially lethal, it isn't a sentient being with a mind of its own. Nevertheless, the fact remains that guns are quite capable of killing people. In point of fact, according to a National Safety Council report; in 2006 there was a total of 30,896 deaths by firearm in the USA from all causes; both intentional and unintentional; both legal and illegal.

    Here's another selection of reverse logic.

    "Hell doesn't kill souls; God kills souls."

    Is that jingle the whole truth and nothing but the truth? No; of course not. Though the Bible's hell is no more a sentient being with a mind of its own than a gun, it is nevertheless quite capable of killing souls.

    The point is that a gun might terminate your body's life; but it cannot terminate your soul's life. However, hell is far more powerful than a gun. It will not only take your body's life, but it will take your soul's life too. To pull the trigger, so to speak; all God has to do is drop you in there.

    Q: If somebody is already dead, then how can hell kill their body?

    A: The current hell doesn't kill the human body because for now when people die, their bodies stay here rather than going there. But out ahead in the future; people in the current hell will be resurrected to face justice at the Great White Throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15. It is then when people's bodies will be terminated by yet another hell; and since there is but one resurrection allotted per person (Dan 12:2, John 5:28-29) then nobody is ever coming back from that hell.

    OBJECTION: There is a lake of fire depicted at Rev 20:11-15. Sorry; but it's impossible to liquefy flame

    REBUTTAL: It's also impossible to inundate the entire planet in a global flood. However; according to Rev 20:10, the lake consists of not only fire; but also a non-metallic substance called brimstone; which Webster's defines as sulfur.

    Sulfur melts at 232.36º F and boils at 832.28º F. If sulfur's temperature is maintained in that range; it easily suffices for an impoundment consisting of both flame and liquid.

    Pop Clock Update: 84 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 4,674,768 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since July 25, 2015.

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