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  1. #11
    Administrator fuego's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Which raises some important questions.

    Why would God continue to use him at all instead of having him exposed ?

    What do his powers amount to by now, is God still using him simply because he preaches to so many people, is very little happening except in people's imaginations or have his powers become demonic by now (by their fruits you shall know them) and people are being deceived ?

    He is definitely becoming a reproach to the name of Christ and to the reputation of the Charismatic movement as such.
    Well Pentecostal/Charismatic history is full of pretty flawed ministers who walked in healing power. So that's nothing new there. God still honors the gift and the Word regardless. It just eventually becomes destructive for them to walk in that kind of power and sin too. Opens a big time door to the devil when he's already trying to take you down due to the power you're walking in.

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  3. #12
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    There was very little wrong with the life of Smith Wigglesworth and he may have been the most powerful of them all, he lived and preached until he was 87 too. Some times things can be more a question of the revival itself and expectations based on who the leading figured used to be rather than of who he is at the moment. Sending some of them where there was no recognition and no expectation might have produced wildly differing results.

    How do we know that the miracles that take place at the same time as the "minister" is seducing other Christian men to have sex with him for money aren't demonic, by the way ? Did "the beautiful angel Emma" and the "shirtless male angel in the golden pants" evacuate "the premises" straight after whatever it was that they did with Bentley ? How do we know that these ever-continuing miracles are always a matter of God's gifts operating irrevocably ?

    TLR complained that several people came to them to have demons cast out of them that they received when well known Charismatic ministries ministered impartations to them. Maybe there was some truth to that.

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  5. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    How do we know that the miracles that take place at the same time as the "minister" is seducing other Christian men to have sex with him for money aren't demonic, by the way ? Did "the beautiful angel Emma" and the "shirtless male angel in the golden pants" evacuate "the premises" straight after whatever it was that they did with Bentley ? How do we know that these ever-continuing miracles are always a matter of God's gifts operating irrevocably ?
    Is there one scriptural example in the NT of a demonic healing? Or even the OT as far as that goes. I didn't say sign or wonder (Egyptians throwing down their rods too would be one example). I said healing, healing miracle, healing restoration miracle, etc? The devil isn't just going around healing people that I can see. So I pretty much always reject the 'devil healing' argument. This is God using flawed people due to the gift (which is without repentance) and God honoring his Word when preached.

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    An open letter to Rick Joyner from Ron Cantor, who has a God TV show and was on staff at BRSM a couple of years as a friend of Michael Brown. When the split happened Ron stayed with BRSM and did not go to FIRE with Michael Brown.

    https://www.facebook.com/notes/ron-c...7573639173410/


    Rick Joyner's response from yesterday of FB to accusations. I haven't listened to it yet.

    https://www.facebook.com/RickJoyner....5188572684100/

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  8. #15
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fuego View Post
    Is there one scriptural example in the NT of a demonic healing? Or even the OT as far as that goes. I didn't say sign or wonder (Egyptians throwing down their rods too would be one example). I said healing, healing miracle, healing restoration miracle, etc? The devil isn't just going around healing people that I can see. So I pretty much always reject the 'devil healing' argument. This is God using flawed people due to the gift (which is without repentance) and God honoring his Word when preached.
    According to history and excavations, the pool at Bethesda was a pagan site and in the Bible account there were lots of people assembled there to get healed. In the context of the antichrist there is :

    2 Thes 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
    10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
    11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
    12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

    The point is to deceive people into receiving a message that's contrary to the gospel and which promotes sin and it's done by way of all kinds of powerful workings (dynamis), signs and lying wonders. The devil is into counterfeiting what God does. That includes healing, there are all kinds of non-Christian healers that deceive people into thinking that their message is from God, including new age healers, shamanic healers, reiki healers. Sai Baba was into healing. There's even a Muslim healer (I don't know if he's Arab or not) who travels Muslim countries and holds large meetings where there are plenty of healings. This isn't speculation, we know what their message is and we know that people claim actual healings from it.

    Demonic anointing may not be the only factor involved in the seemingly ever continuing miracles in the ministry of a sinful minister (or heretical one like Branham became). As long as they continue to the preach the Word, at least in part, people will receive by faith. Especially if there is expectation to begin with. In a meeting where a lot of Christians are assembled in the name of Jesus and the Holy Spirit is present because of that, God will work among them. The minister laying hands on people might serve as a catalyst for their own faith and expectations. People are way too quick to assume that the minister has (or still has) almost anything to do with the results involved in an ongoing revival, beyond his managing to do his job in actually preaching a biblical message to the assembled crowd.

  9. #16
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fuego View Post
    An open letter to Rick Joyner from Ron Cantor, who has a God TV show and was on staff at BRSM a couple of years as a friend of Michael Brown. When the split happened Ron stayed with BRSM and did not go to FIRE with Michael Brown.

    https://www.facebook.com/notes/ron-c...7573639173410/


    Rick Joyner's response from yesterday of FB to accusations. I haven't listened to it yet.

    https://www.facebook.com/RickJoyner....5188572684100/
    This is a major reason why the Charismatic movement is ridiculed by non-Charismatics. That main leaders not only get to live exactly like the world but continue, over a period of years to decades, to live exactly like the world. Their personalities, apparent giftings and popularity is valued way above character and they are treated like spoiled children where people in less visible positions wouldn't receive that kind of accomodating treatment at all. The most visible leaders and figures should be held to a higher standard than the less visible ones and this principle is all over the New Testament. Rick Joyner tries to defend Todd Bentley by saying that the most effective evangelists are often those who recently came out of darkness and who can relate to the struggles of those who have yet to come out of the darkness. That doesn't equal a license to continue in sin and especially not over years to decades and there are plenty of examples of similar evangelists who live and continue to live godly lives - not necessarily from the very day that they took up the faith but certainly since the day that they became public ministers.
    Part of the reason why people like Todd Bentley are allowed to just continue like he apparently does, is very likely the mindset where people see continually sinful ministers as always operating in their original giftings including the miraculous and therefore they should receive special treatment as compared to the less gifted so as to keep the gifting operational and therefore the corresponding results. As discussed just above this post, this mindset may be largely false (a large dinosaur from the Grand Poobah days), meaning that the apparent results may depend far less on the operation of the minister's original gifting than they do on other factors. Other results may have much more to do with the person in question being allowed to continue, namely the reproach that his lifestyle combined with his continuing status as a leader and hero of the movement produces to the name of Christ and the reputation of the Charismatic movement as such.

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  11. #17
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    I noticed that one of the accusations was that Todd Bentley had held large meetings in Pakistan and then acted inappropriately towards young women and now the Pakistanis will never have him in Pakistan again. Christian leaders in third world countries complain a lot about how big names from the West tend to create all sorts of problems and claim that they themselves get far better results with less money being spent. Maybe they are the sensible ones ?

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  13. #18
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Scene A :

    Kathryn Kuhlman, a minister of the Gospel who had many signs, wonders, and healings follow her ministry, made a powerful statement before an auditorium full of people one day:
    “Before I came out here tonight, I died a thousand deaths. Kathryn Kuhlman died a thousand deaths before I could even come out here tonight to tell you about Jesus. I died a thousand deaths, so that you would not hear the words of Kathryn Kuhlman, but rather hear the words of God.”

    Then words of knowledge followed and multitudes were saved and healed.

    ---

    Scene B :

    The minister thinks about how he felt that some intern might have homosexual inclinations and knowing that the intern is short on money he told him that he would give him $1,000 if he could perform oral sex on the intern. The intern seemed dumbfounded by that so he cursed at him to wake him up but he was still dumbfounded. Maybe the intern will budge the next time if he tries something else.
    Then the minister steps up onto the platform, grabs the microphone and preaches his selected sermon and throws a few jokes.

    Words of knowledge follow, multitudes are saved and healed.

    Later the same night the minister brings some booze, crashes the party, hangs with the ladies and shows people images of his nude wife.

    ---

    I could come up with worse examples than in scene B so it doesn't matter whether or not every single detail actually applies to the specific minister in question.

    The question I'm asking myself is how people came up with the notion that the miracles and salvations that came about in scene B did so because the gifts that God gave to the minister are irrevocable, meaning that they operate irrevocably if the minister bothers to make himself available at all. We've had discussions on this forum throughout the years about the "grand poobah" mentality, the "set man" or "superman" who does his thing on the platform, miracles and salvations follow and the congregation is in awe and wonders how and why God gifted that individual so mightily and themselves so scarcily. Then they don't dare question anything that superman said or did whether on stage or off stage because that would amount to "touching God's anointed". I dare say that the belief that the giftings operate irrevocably and therefore that what happened before and after scenes A and B doesn't matter to the result must be as much an integral part of that whole mentality as any of the other things that I just mentioned.

    Rev 2:20 Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols.
    21 And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent.
    22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds.
    23 I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works.

    Still people believe that God's gifts operate irrevocably after reading His message to the person in scene B above. The one I just quoted. Well, is God stupid ?

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  15. #19
    Todd Bentley
    August 23 at 5:43 PM ·
    Statement and letter from desk of Todd Bentley!

    Dear Friends,

    My accountability team has asked me to come forward and address the recent allegations that were posted to the world on Facebook. This has already been dealt with behind the scenes, but because a former associate addressed the world, I must now go public.

    Recently some accusations have been circulated about me and my wife by a former associate. The majority of these accusations are absolutely NOT true, however, there are some that are true, and even some that have partial truths with much exaggeration based on his personal speculation. These faults are many years old, and I would like to briefly address these. I do want to say up front that there has absolutely been NO adultery, there has been no sex outside of our marriage whatsoever.

    Over six years ago, some text messages and communications I had with associates and interns that were sexually suggestive were given to friends who confronted me with them. These were degrading, despicable and without question not the kind of behavior that should come from anyone seeking to follow the Lord or serve Him in ministry. I was mostly embarrassed at first, and tried to deny and cover up my sin. The grace of God and unrelenting friends would not let me do this. When I was finally able to lower my defenses and admit my guilt, I was as deeply appalled by what I had done. I admitted then that these degrading communications were not just jokes or brief lapses of poor judgement—These were things that were still in me, and if any of those who had received those communications had responded to them positively, I could have entered into deeper sin. By the grace of God, I was spared from falling into more serious sins, but the communications themselves were bad enough. I was broken by the fact that these communications were defiling to the children of God I was called to serve. The fact that others had been defiled was even more heart-wrenching than the fact that they had defiled me.

    The Restoration I’ve been Walking Through

    When this was brought to light, I went through a period when I laid aside ministry to repent and receive the restoration I needed to get free from these strongholds of darkness in my life. For over six years now, I have continued in counseling. During this long season, I have continued to pursue heart in deep true repentance I know I must have to be free and to walk in the holiness and purity that the Lord is calling me to. My staff and I have also worked to bring more holiness into our dealings with each other, keeping each other accountable to eliminate all foolish practices and border-line behavior. Though I think I have made a great deal of progress, I am still battling to be totally free yet of all of the darkness that gripped me during my lifestyle before coming to Christ. I am still being delivered, transformed, and gaining wisdom about the safeguards I need in my life.

    Just as Paul struggled repeatedly with his own sinful nature despite His calling from the Lord, I am sorry that I cannot report to you that I am still struggling and warring for increasing freedom from these issues in my life. I meditate often on Paul’s words: "Take heed when you think you stand lest you fall.” (1 Corinthians 10:12) I am a weak sinner that He has given grace to, and I know that it is more than a cliche that I only stand by the grace of God. Like Paul, I cry out for deeper cleansing, healing and deliverance (see what Paul cried out in Romans 7:15-25). One of the biggest gifts of grace that I have been given is my wife, who has stood strong and true, even when subjected to such terrible and false accusations about her that have been so devastating to our family.

    Overcoming Slander and Seeking God’s Will for the Future

    I know that all who have stood by us through so much are gifts of God's grace to us, and I want to thank you for it. I also can understand why many would give up on me through my up and down journey. However, I do not intend to give up, but pray to one day be an example of the grace and mercy of God to redeem and fully restore. Like the high priest in Zechariah 3, I know that I am merely “a burning stick snatched from the fire” and that satan has been fiercely accusing me, not only by reminding the Body about past failings, but also by creating entirely new accusations that have no basis in fact. However, I also believe in the many words God has declared over my life and that He still has an important role for me in the coming harvest, a role that the enemy is currently trying to destroy. I would appreciate any prayer for me and my family to that end.

    “But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.”—1 John 1:7

    I don't claim to have done anything perfectly, but it is my resolve to “walk in the full light” in every area of my life, and so do not want to hide or cover up anything I have actually done in the past, or may have done if I had the opportunity. I am also very sorry for being an embarrassment to my family, friends and supporters, but most of all to the Lord. Just as we are told in Proverbs 24:16, “A righteous man may fall seven times and rise again,” I have resolved to get back up by repenting of my sins and failures, learning all that I can from my failures, but pursuing the higher calling of God on my life, a call to bring in the harvest, heal the sick, restore the broken, and live a life of real and deep holiness.

    As I said above, many of the accusations in the recent letter of indictment against me are either wild exaggerations or completely false. All of those made against my wife are false. All of these accusations about being `investigated now by pastors and leaders,’ and a report will be coming from them about this. I expect to be exonerated of many of the accusations, but I know that to be free and stay free, I must admit and continue to be transparent about both what I am guilty of, what I am definitely not guilty of, and even what I was tempted to do but never acted upon.

    Thanks for all who have been so patient not to give up on me, and it is my sincere desire to one day be an example of the grace, dignity and purity that the cross of Jesus has made possible. The scriptures declare that God chooses the “weak” and “foolish” ones to declare the gospel and do the work of the kingdom. I covet your prayers and need your support because, despite this area of weakness and foolishness in my life, I know that God has called me to help advance His kingdom in this next move of God, here in America and around the world. Please pray that God’s will be done and that His kingdom would advance in this next season in and through my life.

    In Love,

    Todd Bentley
    www.revivalnetcenter.com

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  17. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    According to history and excavations, the pool at Bethesda was a pagan site and in the Bible account there were lots of people assembled there to get healed. In the context of the antichrist there is :

    2 Thes 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
    10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
    11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
    12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

    The point is to deceive people into receiving a message that's contrary to the gospel and which promotes sin and it's done by way of all kinds of powerful workings (dynamis), signs and lying wonders. The devil is into counterfeiting what God does. That includes healing, there are all kinds of non-Christian healers that deceive people into thinking that their message is from God, including new age healers, shamanic healers, reiki healers. Sai Baba was into healing. There's even a Muslim healer (I don't know if he's Arab or not) who travels Muslim countries and holds large meetings where there are plenty of healings. This isn't speculation, we know what their message is and we know that people claim actual healings from it.

    Demonic anointing may not be the only factor involved in the seemingly ever continuing miracles in the ministry of a sinful minister (or heretical one like Branham became). As long as they continue to the preach the Word, at least in part, people will receive by faith. Especially if there is expectation to begin with. In a meeting where a lot of Christians are assembled in the name of Jesus and the Holy Spirit is present because of that, God will work among them. The minister laying hands on people might serve as a catalyst for their own faith and expectations. People are way too quick to assume that the minister has (or still has) almost anything to do with the results involved in an ongoing revival, beyond his managing to do his job in actually preaching a biblical message to the assembled crowd.
    I talked at length with a former spiritualist healer who said they never completely healed anyone. The devil just moved the affliction to another part of the body in another form of illness. When two or more believers come together and agree for something there will be healing there regardless of the jackass up front.
    www.revivalnetcenter.com

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