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Thread: Healing isn't for today

  1. #11
    Senior Member Ezekiel 33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fuego View Post
    Awesome stories. It brings up a point I've been believing since about 2005 or so when Curry Blake opened up my eyes to this. If the minister is in the right place with God, it doesn't matter if the person you are believing for has the faith or not. Every person Jesus prayed for in the NT was healed. Thousands. Do we think they were all in perfect faith? That none had unforgiveness, bitterness, strife, or sin in their life? Yet HE HEALED THEM ALL. Now I will say this concerns the 'world'. Does it work the same way when we pray for Christians? I'm not sure. My jury is still out on that. Although that unbelieving pastor did get healed when Todd prayed for him. But where unbelievers are concerned, they are not required to have faith or be in agreement or whatever. Basically they just need to let you pray for them.

    And as far as Nazareth because I'm sure that someone will bring it up, Jesus didn't lay hands on them and they weren't healed. They weren't healed because they wouldn't come to Him for healing because of their unbelief. He did get a few healed, those were the ones that let Him pray for them. But he could do no mighty work because most didn't come to Him for healing due to unbelief because they knew Him personally as Joseph and Mary's son.
    I am with ya bro. I do believe that there is a difference between praying for an unbeliever and for a believer. Believers are told to call for the elders, which in itself is an act of faith. When you pray for an unbeliever and God heals them they should be receiving some level of faith in God once they see Him work in their life.

    That pastor was an unbelieving believer.

    You could maybe dissect it even further by asking "did he really believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God?"
    Because Jesus Christ the Son of God said that those who believe SHALL/WILL lay their hands on the sick and they SHALL/WILL recover. He also said they SHALL/WILL cast out devils in His name. So the argument could be made that such a one doesn't really BELIEVE that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Mark 16/Acts 8 . Their faith without action is futile???

    (If I am speeding towards a tree at 60mph in my car I can believe that my brakes can save me from hitting the tree. But if I don't apply them they will do me no good whatsoever. )




    Just some thoughts.

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    Senior Member Valiant Woman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fuego View Post
    Awesome stories. It brings up a point I've been believing since about 2005 or so when Curry Blake opened up my eyes to this. If the minister is in the right place with God, it doesn't matter if the person you are believing for has the faith or not. Every person Jesus prayed for in the NT was healed. Thousands. Do we think they were all in perfect faith? That none had unforgiveness, bitterness, strife, or sin in their life? Yet HE HEALED THEM ALL. Now I will say this concerns the 'world'. Does it work the same way when we pray for Christians? I'm not sure. My jury is still out on that. Although that unbelieving pastor did get healed when Todd prayed for him. But where unbelievers are concerned, they are not required to have faith or be in agreement or whatever. Basically they just need to let you pray for them.

    And as far as Nazareth because I'm sure that someone will bring it up, Jesus didn't lay hands on them and they weren't healed. They weren't healed because they wouldn't come to Him for healing because of their unbelief. He did get a few healed, those were the ones that let Him pray for them. But he could do no mighty work because most didn't come to Him for healing due to unbelief because they knew Him personally as Joseph and Mary's son.

    Then why did Jesus say to those He healed, “you faith has made you whole”? In almost every case of healing, He referred to the person’s belief or faith. The woman with the issue of blood is one example, Mark 5. The man whose son was a lunatic is another, Matthew 17.

    Brother Hagin taught that when the gift of healing was in operation, and when the anointing for healing was on him to heal, everyone got healed, even those that didn’t have faith for it.

    He also said that a lot of people don’t keep their healing; one of the reasons he gave is because if they feel symptoms of what they were healed occur, they’ll negate the healing they received by their words of unbelief, thereby causing the illness to return because of the words of unbelief they spoke. (Proverbs 18:20)

    Jesus told the man from the pool of Bethesda to not “sin anymore lest a worst thing come upon him.” So we know that sickness can return even after healing takes place. John 5:14


    Jesus was anointed by the Holy Spirit, and I believe the anointing was upon Him every time He healed people...That is not always the case when we lay hands on sick people.

    “...how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.” **Acts‬ *10:38‬ *
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    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezekiel 33 View Post
    I am with ya bro. I do believe that there is a difference between praying for an unbeliever and for a believer. Believers are told to call for the elders, which in itself is an act of faith. When you pray for an unbeliever and God heals them they should be receiving some level of faith in God once they see Him work in their life.

    That pastor was an unbelieving believer.

    You could maybe dissect it even further by asking "did he really believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God?"
    Because Jesus Christ the Son of God said that those who believe SHALL/WILL lay their hands on the sick and they SHALL/WILL recover. He also said they SHALL/WILL cast out devils in His name. So the argument could be made that such a one doesn't really BELIEVE that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Mark 16/Acts 8 . Their faith without action is futile???

    (If I am speeding towards a tree at 60mph in my car I can believe that my brakes can save me from hitting the tree. But if I don't apply them they will do me no good whatsoever. )




    Just some thoughts.
    Please don't define people who don't believe healing is for today as non-saved. That is going way, way too far.

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    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valiant Woman View Post
    Then why did Jesus say to those He healed, “you faith has made you whole”? In almost every case of healing, He referred to the person’s belief or faith. The woman with the issue of blood is one example, Mark 5. The man whose son was a lunatic is another, Matthew 17.

    Brother Hagin taught that when the gift of healing was in operation, and when the anointing for healing was on him to heal, everyone got healed, even those that didn’t have faith for it.

    He also said that a lot of people don’t keep their healing; one of the reasons he gave is because if they feel symptoms of what they were healed occur, they’ll negate the healing they received by their words of unbelief, thereby causing the illness to return because of the words of unbelief they spoke. (Proverbs 18:20)

    Jesus told the man from the pool of Bethesda to not “sin anymore lest a worst thing come upon him.” So we know that sickness can return even after healing takes place. John 5:14


    Jesus was anointed by the Holy Spirit, and I believe the anointing was upon Him every time He healed people...That is not always the case when we lay hands on sick people.

    “...how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.” **Acts‬ *10:38‬ *
    A minister who was once Kenneth Hagin's driver visited our church in the early nineties and I remember him saying that "faith explodes the power of God". I don't know if he got that from Hagin or not but it sounds similar. So the minister may have a strong gift and in addition a lot of faith but the faith of the healee contributes to the result as those three things come together. When God heals people who have little to no faith then it's more a question of mercy, or a sheer demonstration of the gospel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Valiant Woman View Post
    Then why did Jesus say to those He healed, "you faith has made you whole"? In almost every case of healing, He referred to the person's belief or faith. The woman with the issue of blood is one example, Mark 5. The man whose son was a lunatic is another, Matthew 17.

    I didn't say a person't faith couldn't be involved. Obviously it can be, and Jesus made that clear. But there are many cases where it says 'He healed them all' literally referring to hundreds if not thousands of people at a time. Do we think every one of those people had the faith to be healed? All of them had no sin? All of them had no unforgiveness? All of them had no bitterness, etc? I was just pointing out that when Jesus said to the disciples 'because of your unbelief' he was dealing with the unbelief of the ministers, and Jesus operated in a place where if they came to Him to be healed, then they were healed regardless. We have no place in the gospels where anyone that allowed Jesus to pray for them was not healed. We can't expect they all had perfect faith, or that all of them had faith to be healed. I'm sure many did it just to see what would happen. But if they let Him lay hands on them, they were healed.

    Brother Hagin taught that when the gift of healing was in operation, and when the anointing for healing was on him to heal, everyone got healed, even those that didn't have faith for it.

    Well that's kinda what I'm addressing. Going back again to the disciples, Jesus placed the onus on them for the boy not being delivered. And He specifically said because of your unbelief, not because the gifts of healing weren't working. BUT, could you say the gifts of healing didn't manifest because of the unbelief? Maybe. I don't think we really differ on what we believe. I think maybe you misunderstood what I was saying. But maybe not too.

    He also said that a lot of people don't keep their healing; one of the reasons he gave is because if they feel symptoms of what they were healed occur, they'll negate the healing they received by their words of unbelief, thereby causing the illness to return because of the words of unbelief they spoke. (Proverbs 18:20)

    Jesus told the man from the pool of Bethesda to not "sin anymore lest a worst thing come upon him." So we know that sickness can return even after healing takes place. John 5:14

    Totally agree.

    Jesus was anointed by the Holy Spirit, and I believe the anointing was upon Him every time He healed people...That is not always the case when we lay hands on sick people.

    Totally agree. But I think our unbelief (per Jesus to the disciples) is what is stopping that from happening when we pray (actually 'exercise authority') especially for unbelievers who really aren't required to have any faith for healing if you look at the gospels carefully. I think we can walk where Jesus walked. He was the prototype for the NT Christian. For the record, and I'm not really into going into all the teaching and looking up the scriptures to paste and type out all I would need to type out, but I don't think Jesus operated in the gifts of the Spirit per se. I think he operated in something higher than that, a 'resident' anointing if you will, that allowed him to always walk in that kind of power. I get that out of 1 Cor. 12 and 13 ('a more excellent way'). And yes, we can walk in that. But for the most part we don't seem to have it figured out yet.

    "...how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him." **Acts‬ *10:38‬ *
    I think maybe it was a John G Lake story, and the story Todd told above is similar, but I believe we can all come to the place when somebody says 'I don't have the faith for that', all of us should be able to say, 'that's OK, I have enough for both of us' and then get them healed when we exercise authority over the sickness or devil. I'm definitely not there yet myself, but I think we can all get there.

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    "he healed them all" can be taken too literally. It's not necessarily in the Koine Greek idiom to make that a mathematically accurate statement. There are things that suggest that it isn't.

    Acts 3:1 Now Peter and John went up together to the temple at the hour of prayer, the ninth hour.
    2 And a certain man lame from his mother’s womb was carried, whom they laid daily at the gate of the temple which is called Beautiful, to ask alms from those who entered the temple;
    3 who, seeing Peter and John about to go into the temple, asked for alms.

    The man was subsequently healed as Peter ministered to him but how long had he been there to begin with ? Verse 2 says that people laid him daily at one of the gates of the temple and he kept asking alms of those who entered.

    9 And all the people saw him walking and praising God.
    10 Then they knew that it was he who sat begging alms at the Beautiful Gate of the temple; and they were filled with wonder and amazement at what had happened to him.

    He had been there long enough that the people entering were able to recognize him. Not by his condition since he was now healed but by his looks. He must have been asking for alms at that gate for a long time.

    4:22 For the man was over forty years old on whom this miracle of healing had been performed.

    The man was forty years old and he had been lame since birth. He could have been begging at the temple gate for years. Notice that this healing miracle occurred in Acts 3, the chapter after Pentecost. We don't know how long after Pentecost this happened but Jesus was preaching in the temple only 55 days before Pentecost and that was not the first time he had kept doing that either. The temple isn't that large and Jesus must have passed the man several times as he was begging at one of the gates.

    Did Jesus eradicate sickness in Jerusalem as he stayed there and preached ? No, certainly not. Maybe he healed all that actually came to him for healing and weren't full of unbelief ("what we heard you do in Capernaum, do it here also") but what happened when Peter and John approached the beggar could have happened many times before as Jesus went by him, but it didn't.

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    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    I believe Jesus operated in the gifts of the Spirit as an example to us in all things and he also operated in love and those things go together. Cessationists want us to operate in love instead of in the gifts of the Spirit, by doing things like helping the poor, but there is no conflict. I don't know if Jesus spoke in tongues but he prophecied, had words of knowledge, discerned the spirits, operated in the gifts of healing, power to work miracles and the gift of faith. Here's an example of Jesus operating specifically in the gift of healing :

    Luke 5:17 Now it happened on a certain day, as He was teaching, that there were Pharisees and teachers of the law sitting by, who had come out of every town of Galilee, Judea, and Jerusalem. And the power of the Lord was present to heal them.

    The last sentence would have been redundant if Jesus was in "healing mode" at all times.

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    Senior Member Ezekiel 33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Please don't define people who don't believe healing is for today as non-saved. That is going way, way too far.
    I'm not making a blanket statement that they aren't. However, I guess I am asking "How saved are they?".

    Disciples of Jesus will do what Jesus said to do. I mean, "IF" He is the Son of God, shouldn't we believe and act on everything He said to instead of teaching that He stopped doing those things today.


    Baby Christians have an excuse. They have not yet been discipled.
    But what about those who claim Jesus is a liar by saying that He no longer heals or casts out demons?

    I am not accusing anyone of not being saved, but did they only have enough faith to be baptized, and then their faith faded away? Do they have oil for their lamps?


    What is their ACTUAL state and how could we maybe help them to awaken and start walking out the faith which they claim to have?



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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezekiel 33 View Post
    I'm not making a blanket statement that they aren't. However, I guess I am asking "How saved are they?".

    Disciples of Jesus will do what Jesus said to do. I mean, "IF" He is the Son of God, shouldn't we believe and act on everything He said to instead of teaching that He stopped doing those things today.


    Baby Christians have an excuse. They have not yet been discipled.
    But what about those who claim Jesus is a liar by saying that He no longer heals or casts out demons?

    I am not accusing anyone of not being saved, but did they only have enough faith to be baptized, and then their faith faded away? Do they have oil for their lamps?


    What is their ACTUAL state and how could we maybe help them to awaken and start walking out the faith which they claim to have?


    They aren't very effective for the kingdom but that doesn't mean that they aren't born again. Some of them live reasonably righteous lives.

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