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Thread: Deliverance

  1. #21
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fuego View Post
    Again, from my last post, once you understand how it works, and who is giving the command (the believer) and Who is actually driving the demon out, what kind of demon it is is irrelevant. This has nothing to do with the Greek. Just a basic understand of what happens behind the scenes when a demon is commanded to leave.
    I find that you do this a lot, you skip an enormous lot of details and simply insist on the power of your narrative when applied to the parts that you choose to focus on. One thing is certain, it doesn't produce a lot of useful discussion, except in the eyes of people who already agree with you or are inclined to simply agreeing with you.

  2. #22
    Administrator fuego's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    I find that you do this a lot, you skip an enormous lot of details and simply insist on the power of your narrative when applied to the parts that you choose to focus on. One thing is certain, it doesn't produce a lot of useful discussion, except in the eyes of people who already agree with you or are inclined to simply agreeing with you.
    Works for me.

    And you go into such long posts and minutae that it gets hard to respond. Seriously, I don't like to read all that and use brainpower on it. I see the long post and my mind checks out. Sorry. :)

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  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by fuego View Post
    Works for me.

    And you go into such long posts and minutae that it gets hard to respond. Seriously, I don't like to read all that and use brainpower on it. I see the long post and my mind checks out. Sorry. :)
    If you're not going to discuss the details of a passage then why bother ? Presenting your simplistic narrative is one thing but insisting that it must be correct when you refuse to discuss the details is pretty arrogant.

  5. #24
    Administrator fuego's Avatar
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    I'll add this. I read it, and one can present one's argument, but it if doesn't agree with underlying spiritual priciples, it doesn't matter. That can't be the correct interpretation. There is not such thing as a devil that is harder for the Holy Spirit to cast out. The Holy Spirit could destroy every devil with a blink of the eye with no resistance.

    So, the fasting and prayer has nothing to do with the devil or its 'kind' directly, it has to do with the instrument of authority, US. The prayer and fasting affects US, and how the Holy Spirit reacts and responds to us when we give the command. THE DEVIL AND WHAT KIND IT IS IS TOTALLY IRRELEVANT TO THIS SITUATION. It's about our authority, how unbelief affects that authority, and how the Holy Spirit responds to that authority. The prayer and fasting deals with US, not the devil, or what kind it is or isn't. Period.

    And yes it's simplistic. It doesn't take a lot of mental gyration to figure out.

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  7. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by fuego View Post
    I'll add this. I read it, and one can present one's argument, but it if doesn't agree with underlying spiritual priciples, it doesn't matter. That can't be the correct interpretation. There is not such thing as a devil that is harder for the Holy Spirit to cast out. The Holy Spirit could destroy every devil with a blink of the eye with no resistance.

    So, the fasting and prayer has nothing to do with the devil or its 'kind' directly, it has to do with the instrument of authority, US. The prayer and fasting affects US, and how the Holy Spirit reacts and responds to us when we give the command. THE DEVIL AND WHAT KIND IT IS IS TOTALLY IRRELEVANT TO THIS SITUATION. It's about our authority, how unbelief affects that authority, and how the Holy Spirit responds to that authority. The prayer and fasting deals with US, not the devil, or what kind it is or isn't. Period.

    And yes it's simplistic. It doesn't take a lot of mental gyration to figure out.
    Using your premise it is consequently totally irrelevant if the boy's father has faith or unbelief since Jesus' faith is amply sufficient to cast out the demon. The narrative that you insist on falls apart once one takes a look at the details of the actual account.

  8. #26
    Deliverance is not complicated unless you have unrepentant sin or cessationist thinking in your life.

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  10. #27
    Senior Member Smitty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    That's completely illogical. The account in Matthew leaves us guessing as to whether he's referring to the kind of demon or the kind of unbelief. The account in Mark makes it clear that he is referring to a demon. Since the two accounts clearly describe the same event the clarity of Mark supercedes the ambiguity of Matthew. We could harmonize the accounts into a super-account and then we would make sure that the clarity of Mark is included.

    There is also the word translated as "kind". It's the Greek genos which is used about kinds of people rather than about abstracts like "unbelief". It's more specific than the generic English word "kind" which may be applied to anything.

    "O faithless (unbelieving) and perverse generation." Jesus compares the faithlessness of the apostles as characteristic of their generation. Their faithlessness consisted in their failure to appropriate fully the power given to them by Jesus Himself in Matthew 10:8. Why could we not cast it out? This was most likely their first failure after they had received Christ's authorization in 10:8. Because of your unbelief. Not unbelief in Jesus as Messiah, but doubts as to His commands given to them formerly in Matt 10:8 to "heal the sick, raise the dead, cast out demons.."I agree that fasting and prayer would have strengthened their faith to the point that doubt on the apostles part would not have prevailed to produce failure to cast the demon out of the boy.
    If you put God First, you have Him at Last.

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  12. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty View Post
    "O faithless (unbelieving) and perverse generation." Jesus compares the faithlessness of the apostles as characteristic of their generation. Their faithlessness consisted in their failure to appropriate fully the power given to them by Jesus Himself in Matthew 10:8. Why could we not cast it out? This was most likely their first failure after they had received Christ's authorization in 10:8. Because of your unbelief. Not unbelief in Jesus as Messiah, but doubts as to His commands given to them formerly in Matt 10:8 to "heal the sick, raise the dead, cast out demons.."I agree that fasting and prayer would have strengthened their faith to the point that doubt on the apostles part would not have prevailed to produce failure to cast the demon out of the boy.
    What about the unbelief of the father of the boy in Mark 9 ? Or should we ignore annoying details like that and 90 percent of the New Testament while we are at it in order to arrive at a more simplistic and succinct set of Word of Faith principles that we will be able to apply with astounding success to the point of emptying psychiatric wards, hospitals, funeral caskets etc ? Getting dwarves healed, severed limbs to grow out, the retarded and demented back to normal function ?

  13. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    What about the unbelief of the father of the boy in Mark 9 ? Or should we ignore annoying details like that and 90 percent of the New Testament while we are at it in order to arrive at a more simplistic and succinct set of Word of Faith principles that we will be able to apply with astounding success to the point of emptying psychiatric wards, hospitals, funeral caskets etc ? Getting dwarves healed, severed limbs to grow out, the retarded and demented back to normal function ?
    I’m not seeing how unbelief of that father would affect the son’s deliverance.

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  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireBrand View Post
    I’m not seeing how unbelief of that father would affect the son’s deliverance.
    That's the point, Jesus did see that.

    Mark 9:22 But if You can do anything, have compassion on us and help us.”
    23 Jesus said to him, “If you can believe, all things are possible to him who believes.”
    24 Immediately the father of the child cried out and said with tears, “Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!”

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