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Thread: Deliverance

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezekiel 33 View Post

    The best teaching I have heard on this passage was showing that verse 21 is saying "However, this kind of unbelief does not go out except by prayer and fasting".
    Totally agree. There is no 'this kind' of demon. They are all subject to the name of Jesus spoken in faith. Jesus established 'unbelief' as the subject of His comment to follow. So it's the unbelief, which is the root cause of the demon not coming out, not the assumption that it is some kind of special demon. What prayer is to our spirit, meditation is to our soul, and fasting is to our flesh. When we pray and fast regularly and consistently, it deals with the root cause of the demon not coming out, the unbelief. The problem is not what kind of devil we are addressing, but whether we are truly in faith when we are commanding it to come out.

    There's many points to cover concerning this that make it even clearer, but this is the basics of it.

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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    "this unbelief doesn't go out except by prayer and fasting" would solve the problem with what it means if it's referring to a demon but I don't think it fits the language used. We know that there are different types of demons (unclean, diseases etc) but nowhere does Jesus talk about different kinds of unbelief.
    He's not speaking of 'this kind' of unbelief as in different types. He's speaking of 'this kind' as in a subtle unbelief that inhabits us that we're not even aware of, putting a glass ceiling on our life, that keeps us powerless. Just a little earlier in Matthew He had given them authority over ALL devils and they had said the devils are subject to us in Your Name. Now all of a sudden they can't cast this one out and they're wondering why. Jesus tells them the root cause, their unbelief, and gives them the remedy for that unbelief. The devil isn't the problem. He has bee defeated. The unbelief in those that have been given the authority is.

    This brings up an interesting point. Jesus clearly taught that He cast out devils by the Holy Spirit, by 'the finger of God'. So if the devil comes out when we speak to it, it is because the Holy Spirit drove him out. If the devil doesn't come out, the Spirit didn't drive him out. So this puts no 'responsibility' on the devil to come out based on any characteristic of the devil. If the Spirit drives him out, he comes out. So the 'problem' with casting out devils has nothing to do with the devil, it has to do with whether the Holy Spirit drives the devil out or not when we speak.

    That make the 'problem' the relationship between the Holy Spirit and the believer. If there is no unbelief, the Spirit heeds our words and drives the devil out. If there is unbelief, it keeps the Spirit of God from moving, because He moves in response to faith. Hence, 'prayer and fasting' is addressing the fellowship between the believer and the Holy Spirit. Prayer and fasting removes the hindrance in us, the unbelief, which keeps the Holy Spirit from moving when we speak.

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  5. #13
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Let's have a look at the longer account in Mark :

    Mark 9:14 And when He came to the disciples, He saw a great multitude around them, and scribes disputing with them.
    15 Immediately, when they saw Him, all the people were greatly amazed, and running to Him, greeted Him.
    16 And He asked the scribes, “What are you discussing with them?”
    17 Then one of the crowd answered and said, “Teacher, I brought You my son, who has a mute spirit.
    18 And wherever it seizes him, it throws him down; he foams at the mouth, gnashes his teeth, and becomes rigid. So I spoke to Your disciples, that they should cast it out, but they could not.”
    19 He answered him and said, “O faithless generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I bear with you? Bring him to Me.”
    20 Then they brought him to Him. And when he saw Him, immediately the spirit convulsed him, and he fell on the ground and wallowed, foaming at the mouth.
    21 So He asked his father, “How long has this been happening to him?”
    And he said, “From childhood. 22 And often he has thrown him both into the fire and into the water to destroy him. But if You can do anything, have compassion on us and help us.”
    23 Jesus said to him, “If you can believe, all things are possible to him who believes.”
    24 Immediately the father of the child cried out and said with tears, “Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!”
    25 When Jesus saw that the people came running together, He rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it, “Deaf and dumb spirit, I command you, come out of him and enter him no more!”
    26 Then the spirit cried out, convulsed him greatly, and came out of him. And he became as one dead, so that many said, “He is dead.” 27 But Jesus took him by the hand and lifted him up, and he arose.
    28 And when He had come into the house, His disciples asked Him privately, “Why could we not cast it out?”
    29 So He said to them, “This kind can come out by nothing but prayer and fasting.”

    Notice that in this account Jesus never addresses the unbelief of the disciples so that cannot be the context of his reply in verse 29.

    The word translated "come out" in verses 25,26,29 is the same : "exerchomai". The word is used frequently of demons departing from a person and never about someone losing an internal quality or characteristic.

    Also notice in verse 25 that he tells the demon to leave and then to "enter him no more". To my knowledge this is the only account where Jesus tells a demon not to return. So a theory is that the disciples did manage to cast the demon out momentarily but then it returned immediately and the disciples had to try again. Jesus would be interested in getting the boy delivered from the demon rather than managing to keep the demon out for a few seconds at a time.

  6. #14
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    https://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bib...kind-of-faith/

    Here's the page :

    "I just read an interesting answer you gave concerning sentence construction, pronouns, etc. It reminded me of this passage of scripture that I believe many have misunderstood, which is Matthew 17:20-21, which states, “This kind comes out only by prayer and fasting.” Looking at the nearest noun, this passage would be talking about this kind of unbelief, not this kind of demon (King James version.) (Interestingly, the NIV deletes verse 21 altogether.) So what do you think…is “this kind” referring to this kind of demon or this kind of unbelief?

    A
    The NIV carries Matt. 17:21 in a footnote. Some translations place it in parentheses, while others omit it altogether. The reason for this is that verse 21 is missing in some of the oldest and most reliable Greek texts. Omitting verse 21 leaves no alternative to attributing the phrase “this kind” to our faith.

    But the majority of English translations follow the KJV and place verse 21 in the main body of the text. And of the commentaries I’ve read on these translations, I’ve only seen one that says the phrase “this kind” refers to the word faith. Most say it refers to the demon. Various translations say this kind does not go out, or come out, or is not cast out, and one even says, “this kind of demon is not driven out” except by prayer and fasting.

    Mark 9:14-29 carries a more complete account of the incident and has Jesus answering the question “Why couldn’t we drive it out?” simply by saying, “This kind can only come out by prayer.” In Mark’s account it’s clear Jesus was referring to the demon.

    All the commentaries agree that the verse is a difficult one because it implies that some demons are so strongly entrenched that no one (except Jesus) can drive them out except after a period of prayer and fasting. This either means there is a special class of super demons or that the demon was initially invited in and somehow encouraged to stay. This may be the reason Paul said, “Don’t give the devil a foothold” (Ephesians 4:27). Footholds can become strongholds. Paul also said we have weapons at our command with divine power to demolish strongholds (2 Cor. 10:3-5). Maybe he was thinking of prayer and fasting."

  7. #15
    Administrator fuego's Avatar
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    In Mark’s account it’s clear Jesus was referring to the demon.
    Maybe so if all we had was Mark's account. But when you put the accounts together, including Matt. 17, it's clear what he's talking about.

    It always amuses me when people start talking about versions that don't include certain passages when trying to make their point.

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  9. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by fuego View Post
    Maybe so if all we had was Mark's account. But when you put the accounts together, including Matt. 17, it's clear what he's talking about.

    It always amuses me when people start talking about versions that don't include certain passages when trying to make their point.
    That's completely illogical. The account in Matthew leaves us guessing as to whether he's referring to the kind of demon or the kind of unbelief. The account in Mark makes it clear that he is referring to a demon. Since the two accounts clearly describe the same event the clarity of Mark supercedes the ambiguity of Matthew. We could harmonize the accounts into a super-account and then we would make sure that the clarity of Mark is included.

    There is also the word translated as "kind". It's the Greek genos which is used about kinds of people rather than about abstracts like "unbelief". It's more specific than the generic English word "kind" which may be applied to anything.

  10. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    That's completely illogical. The account in Matthew leaves us guessing as to whether he's referring to the kind of demon or the kind of unbelief. The account in Mark makes it clear that he is referring to a demon. Since the two accounts clearly describe the same event the clarity of Mark supercedes the ambiguity of Matthew. We could harmonize the accounts into a super-account and then we would make sure that the clarity of Mark is included.

    There is also the word translated as "kind". It's the Greek genos which is used about kinds of people rather than about abstracts like "unbelief". It's more specific than the generic English word "kind" which may be applied to anything.
    This brings up an interesting point. Jesus clearly taught that He cast out devils by the Holy Spirit, by 'the finger of God'. So if the devil comes out when we speak to it, it is because the Holy Spirit drove him out. If the devil doesn't come out, the Spirit didn't drive him out. So this puts no 'responsibility' on the devil to come out based on any characteristic of the devil. If the Spirit drives him out, he comes out. So the 'problem' with casting out devils has nothing to do with the devil, it has to do with whether the Holy Spirit drives the devil out or not when we speak.

    That make the 'problem' the relationship between the Holy Spirit and the believer. If there is no unbelief, the Spirit heeds our words and drives the devil out. If there is unbelief, it keeps the Spirit of God from moving, because He moves in response to faith. Hence, 'prayer and fasting' is addressing the fellowship between the believer and the Holy Spirit. Prayer and fasting removes the hindrance in us, the unbelief, which keeps the Holy Spirit from moving when we speak.


    Actually spend some time comprehending that instead of just reading past what I've written to get another post in. Fasting and prayer has nothing to do with the devil directly. Only indirectly. Prayer and fasting directly affects our unbelief which directly affects our relationship with the Holy Spirit who is the one that actually drives the devil out when we speak. What 'kind' of devil is irrelevant.

    What's important is that there is no unbelief when we speak so that the Holy Spirit will/can move in behalf of what we say. Once the Holy Spirit gets involved, since He's the one that actually drives the devil out, it doesn't matter what 'kind' of devil it is. It's GONE. End of story.

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  12. #18
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fuego View Post
    Actually spend some time comprehending that instead of just reading past what I've written to get another post in.
    Thanks the same, I introduced a subtopic that you haven't addressed. The fact that demons might return again. The fact that this is the only account where Jesus tells a demon specifically not to return again.

    I might add another one : The faith or unbelief of the boy's father. What does that have to do with Jesus casting out the demon by faith ?

    22 But if You can do anything, have compassion on us and help us.”
    23 Jesus said to him, “If you can believe, all things are possible to him who believes.”
    24 Immediately the father of the child cried out and said with tears, “Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!”

  13. #19
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    "He taught likewise that fasts are to be the weapons for battling with the more direful demons," (Tertullian, On Fasting, Chapter 8).

    Tertullian was an apologist during the early 200s AD. Did he know Koine Greek ? Well he wrote three books in the language. It doesn't necessarily mean that he's got every detail of the passages figured out but he should be able to tell better than anyone if Jesus is referring to kinds of demons or kinds of unbelief when he mentions fasting in that context.

    One zillion modern Charismatics have decided to agree with each other that Jesus must be referring to unbelief and that interpretation makes things much simpler. That doesn't make the interpretation true, it only makes it easy for a Charismatic to agree with it. The power of consensus.

  14. #20
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    Again, from my last post, once you understand how it works, and who is giving the command (the believer) and Who is actually driving the demon out, what kind of demon it is is irrelevant. This has nothing to do with the Greek. Just a basic understand of what happens behind the scenes when a demon is commanded to leave.

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