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Thread: Who is the Naked Boy in the Garden?

  1. #1
    Senior Member Nikos's Avatar
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    Who is the Naked Boy in the Garden?


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    Administrator fuego's Avatar
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    Haven't watched the video yet but I just shared his written copy of this teaching which has been around awhile with my wife the other night. A very plausible explanation. I've never heard a more convincing one.

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    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    3 questions

    1. Who removed the stone in front of his grave ....did Jesus saying 'I Am' resurrect him and also remove the stone?????
    2. In Lazarus' resurrection he needed help to be freed from his burial clothes but this man's cloth was easily removed
    3. Why weren't others resurrected also and appear?


    Thayer's Greek definition gives us 2 possibilities of the linen cloth
    sindōn

    1) linen cloth, especially that which was fine and costly, in which the bodies of the dead were wrapped
    2) thing made of fine cloth
    2a) of a light and loose garment worn at night over a naked body



    I am skeptical it was a resurrected young man

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  7. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    3 questions

    1. Who removed the stone in front of his grave ....did Jesus saying 'I Am' resurrect him and also remove the stone?????
    2. In Lazarus' resurrection he needed help to be freed from his burial clothes but this man's cloth was easily removed
    3. Why weren't others resurrected also and appear?


    Thayer's Greek definition gives us 2 possibilities of the linen cloth
    sindōn

    1) linen cloth, especially that which was fine and costly, in which the bodies of the dead were wrapped
    2) thing made of fine cloth
    2a) of a light and loose garment worn at night over a naked body



    I am skeptical it was a resurrected young man
    1. Why couldnt angels roll the stone away?

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    Administrator fuego's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    I am skeptical it was a resurrected young man
    I'm not. The only thing that makes perfect sense to me. And Renner is pretty proficient in Greek. I can't think of any other explanation in light of how unusual it is to be mentioned at all. And that second definition from Thayer sounds pretty convenient. Renner would have known that and mentioned it I think. He kept it in context with how the word was used in the NT.

    And the same power that raised him and knocked down the soldiers would have no problem moving the stone. Remember when Jesus died the 'graves were opened' and all those people were raised? It was the power of God. Nobody moved the stones. So there's your answer for that.

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    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fuego View Post
    I'm not. The only thing that makes perfect sense to me. And Renner is pretty proficient in Greek. I can't think of any other explanation in light of how unusual it is to be mentioned at all. And that second definition from Thayer sounds pretty convenient. Renner would have known that and mentioned it I think. He kept it in context with how the word was used in the NT.

    And the same power that raised him and knocked down the soldiers would have no problem moving the stone. Remember when Jesus died the 'graves were opened' and all those people were raised? It was the power of God. Nobody moved the stones. So there's your answer for that.
    If it had amounted to a resurrection then Mark would have mentioned it as one. I would also expect more than one gospel author to mention the miracle. If the linen cloth mentioned was used exclusively for burials at that time and not also as a night garment as Cardinal TT's post states then the gospel authors would have known that and would have elaborated on him being a resurrected person rather than some sort of freak. So I find the theory extremely speculative.

    There are several reasons why Mark would mention someone walking around in a night garment who then fled naked from the scene. First, he's pointing out that the man would rather run through Jerusalem completely naked than let them catch him and identify him as one of Jesus' disciples at that point in time. Second, Mark may have wanted to explain to contemporaries why a naked man was seen running away from where Jesus and his disciples were situated.

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    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    Thayer's Greek definition gives us 2 possibilities of the linen cloth
    sindōn

    1) linen cloth, especially that which was fine and costly, in which the bodies of the dead were wrapped
    2) thing made of fine cloth
    2a) of a light and loose garment worn at night over a naked body
    The same Greek word is used in Mat 27:59 where Joseph of Arimatea wraps Jesus' body in a clean linen cloth. If that type of linen cloth had been used exclusively for burial then specifying it as "clean" would have been redundant. Everything having to do with the content of graves was impure to the Jews, they would never even have considered recycling burial cloths. It should have been possible for a poor person to use a linen cloth for burial that had previously been used for other purposes rather than having to buy a brand new one though. But Joseph of Arimatea gave Jesus' body the best treatment, including expensive spices (John 19)

    A completely different Greek word, othonion, is used when referring to the resulting strips of linen that Peter observed in the grave when Jesus was no longer there. Luke 24 and John 20. So not only does Mark use the wrong word for a completed linen wrapping for a corpse but those struggling with the man would have noticed if he had been in a burial wrap and would most likely have refused to touch him at all. They would certainly have noticed the smell.

    The description of the resurrected Lazarus mentions several items that were on top of the burial linen and which he needed help with removing. John 11

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    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireBrand View Post
    1. Why couldnt angels roll the stone away?
    They easily could of and Jesus' words of I Am miraculously could of but then it becomes speculation as there is no evidence.
    We know Jesus spoke to the soldiers and if his words raised this man then why not others in the graveyard......but it becomes guesswork

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    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fuego View Post
    I'm not. The only thing that makes perfect sense to me. And Renner is pretty proficient in Greek. I can't think of any other explanation in light of how unusual it is to be mentioned at all. And that second definition from Thayer sounds pretty convenient. Renner would have known that and mentioned it I think. He kept it in context with how the word was used in the NT.

    And the same power that raised him and knocked down the soldiers would have no problem moving the stone. Remember when Jesus died the 'graves were opened' and all those people were raised? It was the power of God. Nobody moved the stones. So there's your answer for that.
    That indeed is possible but you then make up a narrative to read into scripture when it is silent.

    Thayer died over a century ago and scholars like him were very proficient in Greek even more so than many teachers today.
    Thayer didn't have any theory to defend or promote so when he said it was used as a sleeping garment there was no ulterior motive he only said what the Greek implied

    Other scholars say it was common to sleep in a linen garment and they also did not have ulterior motives

    There are 2 other possibilities.
    1. The young man was the keeper of the garden and was roused out of sleep by Jesus' words or the tumult of the soldiers
    2. The young man's home was next to the garden and heard the noise and got up

    Again it is only speculation

    Renners version can be more appealing because it uses Jesus' words to claim a resurrection but there is no more evidence than any other theory.

    Jesus could of resurrected the whole graveyard but that is not the point....there has to be more clear evidence than speculation

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    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    This also is speculation
    I can assume a resurrected person being so overcome with the experience that in the natural he would of stood around in amazement sharing what happened not run away in fear

    It's like seeing people who are zapped by God's power they are 'lost' in the encounter and the last thing on their mind is running away.

    When there's silence it ends up becoming what someone wants to believe happened

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