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Thread: Not Afraid of the Anti-Christ-Why we don't believe in a pre-trib rapture--Brown & Keener

  1. #31
    Senior Member Nikos's Avatar
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    If you were on an island with a bible and had never been taught this doctrine, you would not have come up with it by simply reading scripture.
    Of course you would. All that other stuff is what you would not come up with. You would be lost without Dr. Brown!!

  2. #32
    Senior Member Ezekiel 33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nikos View Post
    Dear Friend, The Bible is our instruction book and you must take all of it and apply it to your/our lives.




    2 Tim.3 Verses 16 to 17

    [16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
    [17] That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
    Yes. Your statement is true. However, you cannot take scriptures out of context to prove doctrine. Doctrine is layed out very clearly in scripture. It is dangerous to ignore context when reading scripture. Without context folks will come up with all sorts of whacked-out theories and theologies.


    2 Peter 3:14-18 (NKJV)


    14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

    17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

    To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.
    This is exactly the sort of thing that Peter was warning the church of. There are some who have taken your scripture-"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" and then using that premise they pick through the scriptures like a buffet and take just the bits and pieces that will get them where they want to be.

    The same scripture you use (2Timothy 3:16-17) to say that the Church in Philadelphia is the church today also says that ALL scripture is profitable for reproof and correction. It is o.k. to one day realize that a doctrine you have held for many years/decades is not correct, and then to own it and make corrections in your doctrinal beliefs. There is no shame in that. The shame is when someone shows you by scripture that your doctrine is not scripturally sound, and yet you choose to stick with what you have always been taught by man.

    Please show me one single scripture that separates the day of the Lord/2nd coming of Jesus from the rapture of the church. 2 Thessalonians chapter one says it is one day.

    The following is from chapter 1 of the book we are discussing, by Dr. Brown and Craig Keener. It really makes things very simple and clear:

    Please refer to 1 Corinthians 15:23-26

    23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
    Here the apostle Paul is teaching about the resurrection. We will be resurrected when Jesus comes for us (the rapture).

    Paul says that the last enemy that will be nullified (at the coming of Christ for His bride) is death.

    If death is the last enemy, how does its defeat at our resurrection leave room for an anti-christ or other enemies after our resurrection, which we expect at the Church's Rapture?

    Now read verses 50-52:
    50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    The resurrected inherit God's Kingdom, presumably needing resurrection bodies to do so. This resurrection happens at the LAST TRUMPET.

    But how many trumpets can sound after the LAST one?

    Paul wasn't talking about the trumpets in Revelation, which had not been written yet. But Paul surely knew Jesus' teaching about His return. Can this LAST trumpet, then, precede the trumpet of Matthew 24:29-31?

    Matthew 24:29-31 New King James Version (NKJV)
    The Coming of the Son of Man

    29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
    The visible appearing of Christ in Mat 24:30 and the gathering of the chosen in 24:31 explicitly follow the tribulation described there.

    Now look at 2 Thessalonians 1:5-10

    5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
    Consider some questions about this passage:
    1. Notice when believers receive rest from tribulation: at the time when Jesus destroys those who oppose Him(verses 7-8).

    Will the events of 2 Thess 1:7-8, such as Jesus being revealed from heaven to burn up the wicked, occur even possible before the Tribulation? If so, who would be left to go through the Tribulation?

    2. When do our persecutors appear to be destroyed? Seven years after we receive rest from tribulation, or at the same time that we receive rest (verses 9-10)?

    3. Does this passage divide Jesus' return into two stages?

    For that matter, can you find ANY passage that explicitly does so?

    __________________________________________________ _______________________________________________

    Back to my own thoughts: Matthew 24:30-31 says that when Jesus comes and we are gathered, all the tribes of the earth will mourn and will see Him. Nothing secretive like the Left Behind portrayal of a "Secret Rapture".


  3. #33
    Senior Member Nikos's Avatar
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    I pulverized your arguments with the scripture 2 Tim.3 Verses 16 to 17.

    Debate is over. Thanks. Sorry I threw that zinger at you.

    Time to move on.

  4. #34
    Senior Member Ezekiel 33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nikos View Post
    I pulverized your arguments with the scripture 2 Tim.3 Verses 16 to 17.

    Debate is over. Thanks. Sorry I threw that zinger at you.

    Time to move on.
    You really think that 2 Timothy 3:16-17 allows you to pick and choose scriptures OUT OF CONTEXT in order to concoct a NT church doctrine????

    Wow, I thought you were much more of a biblical scholar than that Nikos. My mind is blown that you would think that Revelation 3:7-13 can be used as making your case for a pre-trib rapture.

    You are so set in your ways that you refuse to even study what the Word of God actually teaches. The passage from Revelation 3 is one of the weakest arguments for a pre-trib rapture that you could use.

    Scripture declares that knowledge will increase, but you don't care. You won't allow yourself to come to a deeper understanding of scripture no matter what.


    What you are saying is that what you were taught by a denomination/men is greater than what the Bible actually says about a subject.



    Oh well, as I said earlier this is not a doctrine worth breaking fellowship over.

    I was just hoping for an intelligent discussion with you on the subject, but now I see that you aren't willing to even examine what you "have always been taught" to see if it even actually lines up with the Scriptures.

    Pre-trib rapture is only supported when you treat the Word of God like a buffet where you only put the things on your plate that you want there(like desert) and ignore everything else.

    God bless


  5. #35
    Senior Member Nikos's Avatar
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    Your comments are filled with pre-suppositions--as always.

  6. #36
    Senior Member Ezekiel 33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nikos View Post
    Your comments are filled with pre-suppositions--as always.
    Can you address the questions I asked in post 32? I would love to read your answers. Really.

    And what exactly did I pre-suppose brother? That you were taught this doctrine by men? What I do pre-suppose is that a seasoned man of God should be able to actually lay out a scriptural support for the doctrines he believes and teaches. That is all I am asking brother Nikos. Your quote of 2 Timothy is no answer at all, especially when that same passage tells us that All Scripture is also profitable for reproof and correction as well as for doctrine.

    I truly cannot believe that your understanding of the Scriptures is so shallow that you would use that scripture in defense of being able to use one isolated scripture from Revelation 3 to prove the pre-trib theory. I expected much more meat from you. Has your sword grown dull?

    Show me what you're made of brother. Dig into the Word of God and actually show yourself approved. You should easily be able to convince by proper use of Scripture and not take a scripture here and another one there to piece together what you actually believe to be true.

    Please show me one single verse that says the 2nd coming of Jesus is not the same day He brings vengeance to the ungodly.

    2 Thessalonians chapter 1 says clearly that it is 1 single event. It says nothing about a "secret" catching away of the church and then sometime in the future (3 1/2 to 7 years later) He comes back again to pour out His vengeance. Matthew 24 backs this up. Too much evidence for a student of God's Word to ignore.



  7. #37
    Senior Member Nikos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezekiel 33 View Post
    Can you address the questions I asked in post 32? I would love to read your answers. Really.

    And what exactly did I pre-suppose brother? That you were taught this doctrine by men? What I do pre-suppose is that a seasoned man of God should be able to actually lay out a scriptural support for the doctrines he believes and teaches. That is all I am asking brother Nikos. Your quote of 2 Timothy is no answer at all, especially when that same passage tells us that All Scripture is also profitable for reproof and correction as well as for doctrine.

    I truly cannot believe that your understanding of the Scriptures is so shallow that you would use that scripture in defense of being able to use one isolated scripture from Revelation 3 to prove the pre-trib theory. I expected much more meat from you. Has your sword grown dull?

    Show me what you're made of brother. Dig into the Word of God and actually show yourself approved. You should easily be able to convince by proper use of Scripture and not take a scripture here and another one there to piece together what you actually believe to be true.

    Please show me one single verse that says the 2nd coming of Jesus is not the same day He brings vengeance to the ungodly.

    2 Thessalonians chapter 1 says clearly that it is 1 single event. It says nothing about a "secret" catching away of the church and then sometime in the future (3 1/2 to 7 years later) He comes back again to pour out His vengeance. Matthew 24 backs this up. Too much evidence for a student of God's Word to ignore.


    Lord, open the eyes of this poor brother.

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