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Thread: Open Theism: Part X

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    As a non-American from a country where Calvinism practically doesn't exist and hasn't since the early days of the Reformation, it has always amazed me to which degree Calvinism has a place and influence in American Christianity. Not only in terms of how many Calvinists there are in all kinds of camps there but also in terms of how difficult many Americans find it to think outside the lines of "Calvinism or not". Some Americans struggle with Calvinism in ways that I find difficult to understand, at least I did originally, and some end up distancing themselves from Calvinism in ways that I find strange. Open Theism fits the latter scenario very well. In ways it seems like upsidedown Calvinism and in ways it seems like a modified version of Calvinism even though it ends up looking very different. The internal mechanism isn't necessarily that different. To this day I have never in my entire life met or even heard of an ethnic Norwegian Calvinist. There are OSASers here but they freak out if I try to connect their beliefs to Calvinism in any way. 99% of my experiences with Calvinists involves Americans, the remainder would be from traditional Calvinist bastions like Holland or South Africa.
    Here in the "mitt" (lower peninsula) of Michigan, the west side is generally strong in Reformed Dutch Calvinist even with a Holland, Michigan. The east side is strong in Catholicism, of the Polish culture. Odd mix.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by fuego View Post
    VW is a big proponent of it. We've talked about it some. My jury is still out, but yet many aspects of it are really interesting and make sense to me. I believe a lot of rejection to it is that we all have preconceived notions of how God has to be in order to be God. "If God isn't ______ then He can't be God!' kind of thing.
    I am indeed a strong proponent of it. The Bible is clear on it to me. I have finished four chapters of a book I am writing with my own understanding of it.

    What I will not do is getting into any debates or arguments over it. If people don't want to accept it I am only required by God to help those within my sphere of influence.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan david View Post
    I remember as a young Christian the "required" reading was Knowing God, by JI Packer (The title should have more accurately been Knowing About God). But the point was he described the multitude of God's "Omni's". It made sense, it was simple, it had supporting scriptures, and thereby most saw it as the complete truth.

    Then you start to read the Bible on your own and you start to notice that the JI Packer model doesn't quite jive with a lot of what you are reading, and there is more to the story. The "conventional wisdom" doesn't appear to cover, or that seems to provides inadequate answers for. You realize that a more complex and nuanced level of understanding is in order, that can be a valid alternative or modified view of God and how he works.

    We see cases where God changes his mind, regrets things he has done, or allows himself to be bargained with. The Classical Theology response of these things being"anthropomorphisms" just doesn't cut it as the right biblical answer. OT presents some possibilities with some biblical support, that other ways of seeing God's purpose and operation are reasonably possible and not necessarily heretical.
    Good post.

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  5. #24
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fuego View Post
    Yep. They don't understand that OSAS comes from Calvinism and the the logical conclusion of it. It's illogical to be OSAS but also 'free will' IMO. The logical conclusion of 'free will' is just the opposite of OSAS.
    I know one OSASer in my church who basically got that from Joseph Prince but he doesn't have a clue about Calvinism. I think he's less sure about OSAS after I discussed it with him. Some times people believe what they heard from somewhere and don't think it through that much. There are few OSASers here but there are many that believe that it's very difficult to lose one's salvation. I find myself distancing myself from nearly-osas now and then.

  6. #25
    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    Every scripture that resembles God changing his mind like JD mentioned with Saul being king and God's dialogue with Samuel has to be weighed with the supreme verse where the bible declares 'Jesus was the lamb slain before the foundation of the earth"

    We could argue what was the point of the creation, the fall, Adam kicked out of the garden when all along God had prepared a savior before all that existed.
    Did he predestine all that to happen or did he allow man to make free will choices ...as Colonel says it depends if you are C or A
    In both cases God's foreknowledge covers both.

    If God indeed created time and lives outside of it then the answer is not difficult but that can be seen as simplistic to some and they want a more philosophical answer which satisfies the human mind but is it truth

    To assume God is subject to time is anti biblical. God works according to time is biblical but it's HIS time frame.

    Who has AUTHORITY over time - Jesus tells us
    Act 1:7 - And He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority.

    The Father does everything according to HIS time even sending Jesus
    Gal 4:4 - But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son...

  7. #26
    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    JD

    My comments address the chief cornerstone of OT which are God, time and foreknowledge

    Since I do not have a comprehensive understanding of OT can you or others share OT where it gives greater clarity to scripture
    It seems to me and I could be wrong but every argument revolves around the definition of God's omniscience, foreknowledge and time


    Colonel has brought up a good point
    Is it possible that OT has gained merit in America due to the strength of Calvinism and free will advocates wanting to counteract Calvinism

    Colonel mentions Norway but the same applies down here Calvinism is not as strong so the need to refute Calvinism isn't as important and therefore the desire to believe OT not as relevant

  8. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    JD

    My comments address the chief cornerstone of OT which are God, time and foreknowledge

    Since I do not have a comprehensive understanding of OT can you or others share OT where it gives greater clarity to scripture
    It seems to me and I could be wrong but every argument revolves around the definition of God's omniscience, foreknowledge and time


    Colonel has brought up a good point
    Is it possible that OT has gained merit in America due to the strength of Calvinism and free will advocates wanting to counteract Calvinism

    Colonel mentions Norway but the same applies down here Calvinism is not as strong so the need to refute Calvinism isn't as important and therefore the desire to believe OT not as relevant
    Probably it would be a good time for VW to give an answer according to his perspective, if we promise not to argue with him We are all old friends here, and can "rise above the argument" so to speak. Lets treat it as a "discovery time regarding various views." Let's also remember, VW is a solid believer like most/all of us who generally participate.

    Let make a rule here - check your guns at the door (No heresy accusations), but laying out some views to help others understand this "current" movement. Lets remember, there always have been movements that provide "windows of understanding" in doctrine and theology. No, it's not a new "revuulashun," in the sense that the Anabaptist did not bring a new revelation, but brought some positive angles/corrections in church "prevailing thought."

    Whaddya say, VW?

  9. #28
    Administrator fuego's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan david View Post
    Probably it would be a good time for VW to give an answer according to his perspective, if we promise not to argue with him

    Whaddya say, VW?
    The reason he has taken that stand is because he's already been through it here. I doubt you'll get an answer out of him, other than to agree with this post of mine. :)

  10. #29
    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan david View Post
    Probably it would be a good time for VW to give an answer according to his perspective, if we promise not to argue with him We are all old friends here, and can "rise above the argument" so to speak. Lets treat it as a "discovery time regarding various views." Let's also remember, VW is a solid believer like most/all of us who generally participate.

    Let make a rule here - check your guns at the door (No heresy accusations), but laying out some views to help others understand this "current" movement. Lets remember, there always have been movements that provide "windows of understanding" in doctrine and theology. No, it's not a new "revuulashun," in the sense that the Anabaptist did not bring a new revelation, but brought some positive angles/corrections in church "prevailing thought."

    Whaddya say, VW?

    Don't believe adherents of OT are heretics but so far the 'doctrine' imo does not stand up to biblical scrutiny
    I still cannot find where it offers greater clarity to scripture apart from its basic premise of redefining God's omniscience, his relation to time and his foreknowledge

    All the arguments to support OT revolve around God's discussion and interaction with humans
    Question - How does a God who is absolute in power and knowledge communicate to a human without some form of condescension and relating to their level which make him look even fallible and non omniscient

    Many arguments by mockers use scripture where God communicates with man to 'prove' he is flawed and terribly fallable' and a being that could not possibly be almighty


    Example
    Imagine defining Albert Einstein as childish because you have only seen him interact with his grandchildren on the level of throwing sand at them playfully, rolling around on the ground, speaking with blubbering baby voices which is all based on fun and going to their level

    We could surely say 'this is not the man that discovered E=MC2'


    Question
    How would you or I relate to a new species of humanoids we created if we were all powerful and all knowing???

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  12. #30
    I have heard it put this way and it makes most sense to me...

    (in essence)

    "Time is a creation of God and thus revolves around God, He is at the center, like the hub of a wheel, and can "look/move down any spoke" and interact with us accordingly".


    And this...

    "God carved out a section of eternity and called it "Time", for use in His dealings with Man."



    Also, from what we understand about this physical universe, time is not absolute, it is relative to the observer.

    Hence, the "Theory of Relativity".

    And it is called the "Fabric of Space/Time" for a reason.

    For God to be "subject to, or limited by Time" (apart from doing so by His Own choice), He would also have be limited to this physical universe and it's laws (Space).



    II Peter 3:8
    But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

    II Peter 3:10-12
    (10) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
    (11) Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
    (12) Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?


    Revelation 10:5-6
    (5) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to Heaven,
    (6) And sware by Him that liveth for ever and ever, who created Heaven, and the things that therein are, and the Earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:



    This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity (futility) of their mind, having the understanding darkened...
    (Ephesians 4:17-18)

    Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly...
    (Psalm 1)

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