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Thread: Ken Ham Calls Andy Stanley a 'False Teacher'

  1. #21
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Hebrews 11 does in fact lend some credence to the "perpetual virginity" theory.

    Heb 11:32 And what more shall I say? For the time would fail me to tell of Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jephthah, also of David and Samuel and the prophets:
    33 who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,
    34 quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, became valiant in battle, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.
    ***
    39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise,
    40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

    Because it suggests that both Samson and Jephthah "obtained a good testimony through faith". In Samson's case that makes sense because he repented at the very end of his life and was presumably restored but there is no mention of Jephthah repenting after completing his vow.

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  3. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Hebrews 11 does in fact lend some credence to the "perpetual virginity" theory.

    Heb 11:32 And what more shall I say? For the time would fail me to tell of Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jephthah, also of David and Samuel and the prophets:
    33 who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,
    34 quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, became valiant in battle, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.
    ***
    39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise,
    40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

    Because it suggests that both Samson and Jephthah "obtained a good testimony through faith". In Samson's case that makes sense because he repented at the very end of his life and was presumably restored but there is no mention of Jephthah repenting after completing his vow.

    Here is a thought...

    We know that Abraham offered up Issac (at God's command) by faith, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

    Could not have Jephthah made a similar (in his mind) vow/sacrifice unto the Lord according to whatever understanding that he may have had at that particular time in Israels history?

    Either way God honored his faith regardless.


    As to actual the fate of the daughter I have no thoughts.


    But being listed in Hebrews 11 is mighty powerful testimony.





    .
    This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity (futility) of their mind, having the understanding darkened...
    (Ephesians 4:17-18)

    Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly...
    (Psalm 1)

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  5. #23
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GodismyJudge View Post
    Here is a thought...

    We know that Abraham offered up Issac (at God's command) by faith, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

    Could not have Jephthah made a similar (in his mind) vow/sacrifice unto the Lord according to whatever understanding that he may have had at that particular time in Israels history?

    Either way God honored his faith regardless.


    As to actual the fate of the daughter I have no thoughts.


    But being listed in Hebrews 11 is mighty powerful testimony.
    .
    There is no account of God telling Jephthah to do anything. If God had then one could imagine that Jephthah thought to himself, like Abraham did, that God would resurrect his daughter from the dead again. There is no account of that either. Nor would it be possible for God to even suggest such a thing at that point in history because the law of Moses expressedly forbade human sacrifice. There is no reason to believe that God had anything whatsoever to do with Jephthah's vow, whatever the vow amounted to. Hebrews 11 honors his faith but that had to do with his valor in defeating the Ammonites. The fact that his completing his vow didn't negate that general rendering of him suggests that it maybe didn't amount to human sacrifice, however.

  6. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    There is no account of God telling Jephthah to do anything. If God had then one could imagine that Jephthah thought to himself, like Abraham did, that God would resurrect his daughter from the dead again. There is no account of that either. Nor would it be possible for God to even suggest such a thing at that point in history because the law of Moses expressedly forbade human sacrifice. There is no reason to believe that God had anything whatsoever to do with Jephthah's vow, whatever the vow amounted to. Hebrews 11 honors his faith but that had to do with his valor in defeating the Ammonites. The fact that his completing his vow didn't negate that general rendering of him suggests that it maybe didn't amount to human sacrifice, however.

    Colonel,

    I never said anything about God telling Jephthah to sacrifice his daughter.


    My thought was only that Jephthah acted in faith even if he was mistaken and that he took it upon himself to make that faith vow.








    .
    This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity (futility) of their mind, having the understanding darkened...
    (Ephesians 4:17-18)

    Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly...
    (Psalm 1)

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  8. #25
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GodismyJudge View Post
    Colonel,

    I never said anything about God telling Jephthah to sacrifice his daughter.


    My thought was only that Jephthah acted in faith even if he was mistaken and that he took it upon himself to make that faith vow.
    .
    You mean that Jephthah decided that he should sacrifice his daughter and then that God would raise her from dead, even though God never said a word about any such thing ? If that doesn't qualify as presumption or testing God, then what would ?

  9. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    You mean that Jephthah decided that he should sacrifice his daughter and then that God would raise her from dead, even though God never said a word about any such thing ? If that doesn't qualify as presumption or testing God, then what would ?
    Never mind.





    .
    This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity (futility) of their mind, having the understanding darkened...
    (Ephesians 4:17-18)

    Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly...
    (Psalm 1)

  10. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Jew and Greek View Post
    Andy Stanley built his church with a combination of name recognition (his dad is Dr. Charles Stanley) and church growth marketing techniques, where you essentially provide the church with what they want rather than giving them what they need. If his church members don't want a literal reading of the Genesis account of creation then he'll give them something that they like.


  11. #28
    "where you essentially provide the church with what they want rather than giving them what they need."

    My pastor was talking about a published list of things that tend to promote church growth. One of the items was to shorten services to one hour.
    He decided that having enough time in the service for the Spirit to flow was more important, so he lengthen service times. First service is 2hr plus 15 min break to 2nd service which often goes even longer.

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  13. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan david View Post
    "where you essentially provide the church with what they want rather than giving them what they need."

    My pastor was talking about a published list of things that tend to promote church growth. One of the items was to shorten services to one hour.
    He decided that having enough time in the service for the Spirit to flow was more important, so he lengthen service times. First service is 2hr plus 15 min break to 2nd service which often goes even longer.
    Your pastor has it right.

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  15. #30
    Senior Member Ezekiel 33's Avatar
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    That was one of the complaints I have heard the past couple of years. I think folks have too many things on their Sunday agenda than "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day". Folks want micro-wave church. Even when there would be a powerful move of the Spirit there would be complainers that the service was too long.

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